141 replies to this topic

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 1 2007, 06:43 PM, said:

I think you misinterpret what I have been saying. I didn't state that we should turn into Christians and love our enemy. They were very wicked in the way they treated and opposed the Imamate and the family of the Rasoolilah(as) there is no doubt about that, I said that cursing excessively does not and should not be the means to show love for Ahlulbait(as). It does not create an atmosphere of common goals withing the Ummah. We are all Muslims. We believe in Tawhid, that the Prophet was His messenger and we all believe in Ahkira. I didn't say anything about getting pally with the Wahibiis. Although, if a Wahabi debates with you and has questions on Shiaism and history you shouldn't turn him away either! Some are just very ignorant!
I must apologise for my statement on the imams forgiving their enemies. I meant to say showed compassion and kindness towards their murderers - not the same thing, I know, but as a principle to show humility for your enemy, though he has caused you harm and suffering. Was it not for the sake of Islam? Any non-Muslim/non-Shia reading those accounts would be moved with respect and admiration for such noble, divinely inspired men.

You say it is not us Muslims that punish the hypocrites, but our invocations doubles up their punishment, so your argument is flawed.
Lastly, the quotes you have used do not back up the points you raise with regard to cursing. I can hate what they have done in my heart, but I don't have to curse them a hundred times a day to prove that!

you have a lot to learn. you are the goody goody without knowing what good is. you use fancy words like fundamentalism without knowing what fundamental is.

but please keep going and asking and discussing, it will inshallah grow you more in iman.
sis spizo well done but one thing at a time and gently.

cursing(laan) is essential to be able to choose the right path.
in the holy book Allah(swt) himself has cursed the wrongdoers so many times.
by saying astaghfirullah(laan) we rid and clean the heart of the evil and bad and it is only then that it will have the space for the most amount of good(love of muhammad and ali muhammad)
but remember
cursing is not to offend someone
like do not call their false gods bad.

[Zara28]

haideriam, on Aug 1 2007, 01:43 PM, said:

you have a lot to learn. you are the goody goody without knowing what good is. you use fancy words like fundamentalism without knowing what fundamental is.

but please keep going and asking and discussing, it will inshallah grow you more in iman.
sis spizo well done but one thing at a time and gently.

cursing(laan) is essential to be able to choose the right path.
in the holy book Allah(swt) himself has cursed the wrongdoers so many times.
by saying astaghfirullah(laan) we rid and clean the heart of the evil and bad and it is only then that it will have the space for the most amount of good(love of muhammad and ali muhammad)
but remember
cursing is not to offend someone
like do not call their false gods bad.

Thank you for your rather patronising response! Perhaps you should be examing your own imaan and not preaching to others on their state of spiritualty and connection with God.


If Shias have a bad reputation is it sadly due to mentalities such as your own.

[SpIzo]

I think we are misinterpreting each other's post due to perhaps, mis-communication [if there is such a word!]

I'll try to cover up the loopholes this time properly, so that there is no room for excuse.

Zara28, on Aug 2 2007, 12:05 AM, said:

yes, I will accept your links.

Well, I was not talking about acceptance of 'links', but acceptance of traditions. Would you accept it?

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I would just like to point out, whatever reason, or whatever circumstances brought about the Imams to show compassion, is neither here nor there. My point is that the good they did, the examples that they showed cannot be ignored. You think God instructed them to show humilty for their oppressors for the fun of it? There was obviously justification for doing so.

Sis, can you show me where the Aimmah (A) humbled themselves before the oppressors? They were never sympathetic or compassionate towards the usurpers, but they 'co-operated' [please check the dictionary for the meaning of that term] for Islam, not to forigve or please the hypocrites.

Secondly, why do you ignore the innumerable traditions regarding cursing? You yourself stated that Ziyarat Ashura has cursing in it, yet you do not want to accept it? Ziyarat Ashura were the words of the Imams (A).

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You have to also take into account that times have changed since the days of the immamate. Sometimes you have look at what is going on around you. The Muslims have never been so divided. Causing further rift does not promote the unity of Muslims. God judges who will go to Jannah or otherwise. I talk to my Sunni brethren and answer their questions to the best of my ability, but it is God who will judge them, not me. Do you think we should be showing examples to our non-Shia fellow Muslim and 'prove' that we are sectarian and don't know any better? We are supposed to be ambassadors for our religion and school of thought.

I have already said 'tabarra' is a tool to backstab us. It neither divides the Muslims nor hinders progress. It is just as an excuse to refrain from uniting with the Rafedi. Muslims have been divided on the issue of wilayah, not on the basis of tabarra. Should we stop believing in wilayah?

'Times have changed' isn't a good and valid argument. Times have changed, people have become more busy in their lives, lets reduce the number of raka'at. Times have changed, people are tired after the day's work, Salat al-Layl should be ignored. Is this valid?

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In your statement regrading unity with other sects YOU mentioned Wahabi, not me. I merely pointed out that I had not said anything about being united with Wahabis, per se, but that we should not shun them if they want to gain knowledge of Shiaism from us.

Lol, sis I don't know what you're reading, but I said uniting with "Sunnis/Wahhabis etc. . ". There was no mention of debating with them at all.

Edited by SpIzo, 01 August 2007 - 01:55 PM.

[SpIzo]

haideriam, on Aug 2 2007, 12:13 AM, said:

sis spizo well done but one thing at a time and gently.

Thanks. For the advice.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 1 2007, 01:53 PM, said:

I think we are misinterpreting each other's post due to perhaps, mis-communication [if there is such a word!]

I'll try to cover up the loopholes this time properly, so that there is no room for excuse.
Well, I was not talking about acceptance of 'links', but acceptance of traditions. Would you accept it?
Sis, can you show me where the Aimmah (A) humbled themselves before the oppressors? They were never sympathetic or compassionate towards the usurpers, but they 'co-operated' [please check the dictionary for the meaning of that term] for Islam, not to forigve or please the hypocrites.

Secondly, why do you ignore the innumerable traditions regarding cursing? You yourself stated that Ziyarat Ashura has cursing in it, yet you do not want to accept it? Ziyarat Ashura were the words of the Imams (A).
I have already said 'tabarra' is a tool to backstab us. It neither divides the Muslims nor hinders progress. It is just as an excuse to refrain from uniting with the Rafedi. Muslims have been divided on the issue of wilayah, not on the basis of tabarra. Should we stop believing in wilayah?

'Times have changed' isn't a good and valid argument. Times have changed, people have become more busy in their lives, lets reduce the number of raka'at. Times have changed, people are tired after the day's work, Salat al-Layl should be ignored. Is this valid?
Lol, sis I don't know what you're reading, but I said uniting with "Sunnis/Wahhabis etc. . ". There was no mention of debating with them at all.

I do not want to cause fitnah, sister but I think you are trying to be disagreeable for the sake of it. On your last comment, for example, you mentioned uniting with Sunnis/Wahabbis.. which was the point I was trying to make in my earlier post. I initially didn't bring Wahabbbi into the  equation atall. I added that(as an extra thought) debating with them should not be discouraged.

Furthermore, your 'suggestion' that I should "check with the dictionary for that term"(co-operation) only leads me to believe that you feel the need to be patronising in order to make your point.  


You will forgive the non-Shia who sees us dogmatic, won't you?


I think you know what I mean by the assirtion: times have changed. If you wish to make light of the point I was trying to make, which is the mass killing of Shia and Sunni by each other, then there is little point of trying to hold an adult discussion with you, with respect.


The issue of contempt towards the hypocrites and evoking God's damnation on them is not the main issue dividing the 2 sects, but tell me how do you politely explain to your Sunni brother or sister why you curse 100 times a day? Iam interested to know. Do you not think that all this hatred makes a person hard-hearted? Do the Shias who mutilate themselves in Ahsura hold the same opinion and is this due to cursing so many times a day?

These are questions and not statements as such. This is a discussion forum and Islam should be debated even in the negative..as Ayatollah Khumaini once said. We are not talking about Islam or Shiaism in the negative, astaghfurullah, but I appreciate that to the more conservative Shia these questions may be seen as heathen-like This is where patience comes in!

Yes, Imam Hussein and Ali(as) showed compassion towards their murderers. Did Ameerul Mu'mineen(as) not request that the rope be loosen on his murder's wrists, even though he struck him with malice and cold blood? Did Imam Hussein(as) not feel pity for his oppresor(s) because of the punishement that was awaiting him?


You can preach how much barakah you may get from cursing, but while doing so have a thought for the humilty of compassion that was displayed by our masumeen(as) aswell..

Edited by Zara28, 01 August 2007 - 02:54 PM.

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 2 2007, 01:12 AM, said:

I do not want to cause fitnah, sister but I think you are trying to be disagreeable for the sake of it. On your last comment, for example, you mentioned uniting with Sunnis/Wahabbis.. which was the point I was trying to make in my earlier post. I initially didn't bring Wahabbbi into the  equation atall. I added that(as an extra thought) debating with them should not be discouraged.

But why not unity with the Wahhabis? Don't they proclaim the Shahada? Why such prejudice against them?

Quote

Furthermore, your 'suggestion' that I should "check with the dictionary for that term"(co-operation) only leads me to believe that you feel the need to be patronising in order to make your point.

Sister, that is because I've been trying to make you understand why they "co-operated" with the enemies, not showed compassion to them which you have been trying to make out.

Quote

You will forgive the non-Shia who sees us dogmatic, won't you?

I'm sorry I don't understand this.

Quote

I think you know what I mean by the assirtion: times have changed. If you wish to make light of the point I was trying to make, which is the mass killing of Shia and Sunni by each other, then there is little point of trying to hold an adult discussion with you, with respect.

Sis, and I said tabarra isn't the cause of these mass killings.

Yes, there is little point is holding a respectful discussion because inspite of offering proofs, you are turning a blind eye towards them.

Quote

The issue of contempt towards the hypocrites and evoking God's damnation on them is not the main issue dividing the 2 sects, but tell me how do you politely explain to your Sunni brother or sister why you curse 100 times a day? Iam interested to know. Do you not think that all this hatred makes a person hard-hearted? Do the Shias who mutilate themselves in Ahsura hold the same opinion and is this due to cursing so many times a day?

You're free to believe what you want. But you cannot deny that cursing is a part of our faith.

There's no need to discuss cursing with the Sunnis. If they are intellectuals, they will try to research and find out why we curse whom we curse rather than condemning us. Our actions which have been recommended for us do have reasoning behind them.

Quote

Yes, Imam Hussein and Ali(as) showed compassion towards their murderers. Did Ameerul Mu'mineen(as) not request that the rope be loosen on his murder's wrists, even though he struck him with malice and cold blood? Did Imam Hussein(as) not feel pity for his oppresor(s) because of the punishement that was awaiting him?
You can preach how much barakah you may get from cursing, but while doing so have a thought for the humilty of compassion that was displayed by our masumeen(as) aswell..

Imam Ali (A) also commanded 'an eye for an eye'. Feeling of pity does not equal to feeling of compassion.

As for the last paragraph, having a thought for the akhlaq that was displayed by our Ma'soomeen (A) exalts their station and love for them in our hearts and multiplies the hatred for their enemies. Didn't you read in the above traditions, that we should be hating their enemies? I thought we had gotten through it.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 1 2007, 03:21 PM, said:

But why not unity with the Wahhabis? Don't they proclaim the Shahada? Why such prejudice against them?
Sister, that is because I've been trying to make you understand why they "co-operated" with the enemies, not showed compassion to them which you have been trying to make out.
I'm sorry I don't understand this.
Sis, and I said tabarra isn't the cause of these mass killings.

Yes, there is little point is holding a respectful discussion because inspite of offering proofs, you are turning a blind eye towards them.
You're free to believe what you want. But you cannot deny that cursing is a part of our faith.

There's no need to discuss cursing with the Sunnis. If they are intellectuals, they will try to research and find out why we curse whom we curse rather than condemning us. Our actions which have been recommended for us do have reasoning behind them.
Imam Ali (A) also commanded 'an eye for an eye'. Feeling of pity does not equal to feeling of compassion.

As for the last paragraph, having a thought for the akhlaq that was displayed by our Ma'soomeen (A) exalts their station and love for them in our hearts and multiplies the hatred for their enemies. Didn't you read in the above traditions, that we should be hating their enemies? I thought we had gotten through it.

There is general ill-feeling towards Wahabis which is precisely why I said debating with them is not to be discouraged. I think I tried to emphasis this a few times now.



So, you are telling me that if a Sunni came up to you now and asked(not necessarily criticised) why you curse you would tell him/her to educate himself..am I to presume that you have no response to his query? This is what I mean by dogmatic. You have to be able to explain why we believe what we believe and not simply refer them all to Islam.org for example. We are supposed to be examples of following Ahlulbait and not just following hadeeth and traditions because some of us are born into it.


I know about eye for an eye..that is a just law. A divine law, but that doesn't change the fact that compassion was shown towards the enemy. Tell me, how many of us would cry for our enemy and have pity on them..? How many of us would show concern if our oppressor was in discomfort? To use the term co-operation is a bit of an under-statement, wouldn't you say?! This takes a great character that can only be shown in prophets and Ahlalbait. This is the very reason why they are infallible.

Can you prove that tabarra is not the cause of mass sectarian killings? True, it is mostly political rather than religious, but to state that it has no bearing on hatred towards Shia is a little adventurous considering the fact that many Sunnis see us as infidels anyway.


You can hate someone, despise them with all your heart, but still not curse 100 times a day. If you choose to do so, that is your perogative. There is an element of  cursing in Tawwasul(though obviously not to the same extent) and by doing that you are acknowledging they are loathed and what part they played in opprsessing the friends of God, I do this myself regularly, but not excessively. Rather, I like to learn about their characters and offer salutations onto them.

Edited by Zara28, 01 August 2007 - 05:28 PM.

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 1 2007, 09:48 PM, said:

There is general ill-feeling towards Wahabis which is precisely why I said debating with them is not to be discouraged. I think I tried to emphasis this a few times now.
So, you are telling me that if a Sunni came up to you now and asked(not necessarily criticised) why you curse you would tell him/her to educate himself..am I to presume that you have no response to his query? This is what I mean by dogmatic. You have to be able to explain why we believe what we believe and not simply refer them all to Islam.org for example. We are supposed to be examples of following Ahlulbait and not just following hadeeth and traditions because some of us are born into it.
I know about eye for an eye..that is just law. A divine law, but that doesn't change the fact that humility was shown towards the enemy. Tell me, how many of us would cry for our enemy and have pity on them..? How many of us would show concern if our oppressor was in discomfort? To use the term co-operation is a bit of an under-statement, wouldn't you say?! This takes a great character that can only be shown in prophets and Ahlalbait. This is the very reason why they are infallible.

Can you prove that tabarra is not the cause of mass sectarian killings? True, it is mostly political rather than religious, but to state that it has no bearing on hatred towards Shia is a little adventurous considering the fact that many Sunnis see us as infidels anyway.
You can hate someone, despise them with all your heart, but still not curse 100 times a day. If you choose to do so, that is your perogative. There is an element of  cursing in Tawwasul(though obviously not to the same extent) and by doing that you are acknowledging they are loathed and what part they played in opprsessing the friends of God, I do this myself regularly, but not excessively. Rather, I like to learn about their characters and offer salutations onto them.

sis zara28 are you from pakistan/india?

the tabarra/laan is very different to what is practised in both those countries, hence your confusion.
in ziarat e ashura the laan comes before the affiliation, the one we have to recite 100 times.
learn from the words of the masumeen, do not question like the 2nd, but questions for understanding...yes.

the compassion shown is different to the laan.
the compassion is justice for giving a punishment fitting a crime and in the way prescribed.
the laan does not go away just because their was compassion(as we understand) but really justice in its perfection.

[Zara28]

haideriam, on Aug 1 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

sis zara28 are you from pakistan/india?

the tabarra/laan is very different to what is practised in both those countries, hence your confusion.
in ziarat e ashura the laan comes before the affiliation, the one we have to recite 100 times.
learn from the words of the masumeen, do not question like the 2nd, but questions for understanding...yes.

the compassion shown is different to the laan.
the compassion is justice for giving a punishment fitting a crime and in the way prescribed.
the laan does not go away just because their was compassion(as we understand) but really justice in its perfection.

No, I am not from  Pakistan or india.


I am not sure what you mean by "do not question like the 2nd, but question for understanding."


Can you bit a bit clearer in your statements please.



Punishing and cursing others is not up to us.

Edited by Zara28, 01 August 2007 - 04:44 PM.

[Almuslim]

Jihaad, on Jul 30 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

,

Is it WAJIB for followers of the Ahl-ul-Bayt to curse, or invoke Allah's curse, upon enemies of the Ahl-ul-Bayt such as Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman? Or can one simply refrain from doing so if he or she pleases? Please give substantiated replies backed by statements from ulema. Thank you.

what kinof question is that, i can understand coming from a person named jihaad.... ur prolly sunnie and i guess we can forgive you for that evil kindof thinking that you were taught from birth

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 2 2007, 02:18 AM, said:

There is general ill-feeling towards Wahabis which is precisely why I said debating with them is not to be discouraged. I think I tried to emphasis this a few times now.

Sis, we are not talking about debates. I asked you a question - why did you show frustration when I mentioned Wahhabis? What was wrong with it? Why don't you want to unite with them?

Quote

So, you are telling me that if a Sunni came up to you now and asked(not necessarily criticised) why you curse you would tell him/her to educate himself..am I to presume that you have no response to his query? This is what I mean by dogmatic. You have to be able to explain why we believe what we believe and not simply refer them all to Islam.org for example. We are supposed to be examples of following Ahlulbait and not just following hadeeth and traditions because some of us are born into it.

LOL, sis please don't think I'm new to all this. I've debated with Sunnis/Wahhabis alike and this question has come up many times in our debates.

I'm curious though. How are you going to respond to a Sunni if s/he asks you about cursing? You are going to respond by denying the concept altogether? That is even worse than being 'dogmatic'.

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I know about eye for an eye..that is a just law. A divine law, but that doesn't change the fact that compassion was shown towards the enemy. Tell me, how many of us would cry for our enemy and have pity on them..? How many of us would show concern if our oppressor was in discomfort? To use the term co-operation is a bit of an under-statement, wouldn't you say?! This takes a great character that can only be shown in prophets and Ahlalbait. This is the very reason why they are infallible.

Tell me, do you still recite the Ziyarat and Duas where the enemies are cursed? And why do you, if you want to show compassion to them?

I don't know why you are running away from the points.

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Can you prove that tabarra is not the cause of mass sectarian killings? True, it is mostly political rather than religious, but to state that it has no bearing on hatred towards Shia is a little adventurous considering the fact that many Sunnis see us as infidels anyway.

Can you prove that it is? Yes, we are already Rafedis due to our love for Ahlul Bayt (A). So should we stop believing in wilayat and accept Abu Bakr as the first caliph [praising him to the hilt] to appease the Sunnis?

Quote

You can hate someone, despise them with all your heart, but still not curse 100 times a day. If you choose to do so, that is your perogative. There is an element of  cursing in Tawwasul(though obviously not to the same extent) and by doing that you are acknowledging they are loathed and what part they played in opprsessing the friends of God, I do this myself regularly, but not excessively. Rather, I like to learn about their characters and offer salutations onto them.

Lol, you mean to say you would rather not follow this teaching of theirs where they said to curse their oppressors, right?

I don't see any difference, though, whether you do it once or 100 times. For the Sunni, it is one and the same.

That's your personal opinion and your prerogative which has no bearing on anyone.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 3 2007, 12:27 PM, said:

Sis, we are not talking about debates. I asked you a question - why did you show frustration when I mentioned Wahhabis? What was wrong with it? Why don't you want to unite with them?
LOL, sis please don't think I'm new to all this. I've debated with Sunnis/Wahhabis alike and this question has come up many times in our debates.

I'm curious though. How are you going to respond to a Sunni if s/he asks you about cursing? You are going to respond by denying the concept altogether? That is even worse than being 'dogmatic'.
Tell me, do you still recite the Ziyarat and Duas where the enemies are cursed? And why do you, if you want to show compassion to them?

I don't know why you are running away from the points.
Can you prove that it is? Yes, we are already Rafedis due to our love for Ahlul Bayt (A). So should we stop believing in wilayat and accept Abu Bakr as the first caliph [praising him to the hilt] to appease the Sunnis?
Lol, you mean to say you would rather not follow this teaching of theirs where they said to curse their oppressors, right?

I don't see any difference, though, whether you do it once or 100 times. For the Sunni, it is one and the same.

That's your personal opinion and your prerogative which has no bearing on anyone.

Sis, I am not frustrated with the idea of being united with Wahibbis. I said that generally(amongst Shia, in particular) there tends to be animosity towards them and if it means we should debate(as the first step) then we should do it. Moreover, we should work towards unity with the other sects too.

Onto to your second question: I would answer by explaining why those particular companions recieve our displeasure( you can't say you hate their guts, when engaging into discussion on such a sensitive subject with Ahlul Sunnah) and also state that a great deal of Shia believe that cursing, who we regard as hypocrites(and give evidence why they are munafiq) is recommended. But, I have to say, at this point that I would find that issue very uncomfortable to be discussing with my Sunni brethren. It is not because I 'believe' their leaders were good people, or that I want to 'let them off the hook', but because I think cursing brings about negativity within the Ummah and that there are other ways of sending blessings and good will to the Masumeen(as) without cursing.

I don't do Ziaret Ashura anymore, becasue of the points I have raised. And it is NOT because I respect the enemies of Imam Hussein(as) astaghfurullah - and shame on the person who so much as suggests such a thing- but because I do not feel right to curse anyone except Shatan. God judges and punishes those who have done evil and injustice towards Ahlulbait(as). Whether I curse or not, will not prevent God's justice from being done. I regularly recite Tawwasul and Waritha and I am fully aware that there is a curse at the end of Tawwasul. You are acknowledging that God's enemies did great evil and I have no problem in calling up damnation on the enemies of Ahlulbait(as). I have a problem with cursing so excessively towards a given person. You think God doesn't know who you are referring to when you say "curse the enemies of Allah and Imams"?!(tawwusul)  Rather, I would prefer to using my time sending salams onto them, instead of dwelling on such a tragic event. All those who gave their life for Islam and for the sake of God are in Jannah and are at peace., inshAllah. Yes, of course we should remember and be eternally grateful for the sacrifices they made, but beating yourself up till you bleed and cursing is not helpful, in my opinion.


We should be focusing on taking steps to be a united Ummah. We are falling apart and the enemy is taking advantage of that.  I agree that teaching others the truth is crucial, but we should also bear in mind that there is no room for sectarianism either!  Too much Shia-Sunni is not helping the global Muslim cause. God will judge who is a good Muslim or not.


Lastly, neither you nor I can prove if tabarra is partly to blame for sectarian strife, but it is a possible contributing factor. If a Shia wants to curse, he will curse no matter anyone else says, but there are also ways of not showing how much animosity you have for the likes of Abu Bakr either. It doesn't mean you admire him or approve of his actions, but one must bear in mind that we are living in turbulent times and that our actions can be seen as provocative to Sunnis.  A little sensitivity is all that is required.


Yes, it is my personal opinion and I am sorry but there is some truth in what I have said. Again, people will agree or disagree, it is a personal thing and if you, or others believe it is recommended to curse  and are strong in that conviction, then my views should not change yours or those of other Shia.

Edited by Zara28, 03 August 2007 - 06:09 PM.

[Zara28]

3ashiqatAlZahraa, on Aug 1 2007, 09:51 PM, said:

Salam sister

I have been watching the debate between yourself and sister spizo and am quite astounded at how you brought this into the debate to begin with? If you want to preach to her about how she should deal with sunnis/wahabis take a look at the sunni/shia forum and you will see she is already debating and informing them on a regular basis. Furthermore what does this have to do with the issue of cursing to begin with? How exactly did you manage to bring this completely irrelavant topic into this discussion?

The sister never once said if a sunni came up to her and asked her why we curse she would not give him answers. But if even the shia amongst us (taking you as an example) upon being shown proof from our own ahadith and books for the righteosness of our actions refuse to listen and are turning a blind eye to it, try imagining what a sunnis response would be.
You have made this claim several times in this debate, so i respectfully ask of you to bring proof of your claims that the ahlulbayte showed compassion or care toward their enemies. The only correct thing you said is that they showed pity for them. But do you even understand what the word pity means?

It can only slightly be used to define the feelings of ahlulbayte toward their enemies. They pity and feel sorry for their enemies because they see the truths of the world and know where their evils are going to take them. However when you look at the definition of compassion you get this:

1. a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

So i kindly ask of you to provide proof of instances where your claims have been shown by ahlulbayte .
The sister has stated around 3 times before that no, tabbara is not a real reason for mass sectarian killings, i will quote her directly

"I said before and I repeat, Unity should not be at the cost of compromising our beliefs and Unity is not with the Sunnis/Wahhabis etc.. but with Islam. Only for the sake of Islam. I don't believe we can ever be united with other sects on ideological grounds but we can strive to unite on political or economical grounds just to live in harmony. Tabarra is unnecessarily being dragged into this issue. As I said before, it's just an excuse for the non-Shi'a to backstab us."

If you want to say that tabarra is causing disunity and unnecesarry mass killings, and this is a good enough reason for us to not do it then you are in a very dangerous situation my dear sister. We will NOT compromise our faith and beliefs in the name of "unity". Why? because it doesn't end here. We are already Widely considered kafirs, rafidis etc because of our believing in the wilayat of Ali . Once we compromise our believe in tabarra in the name of unity, soon they will be attacking our believe in wilayat, and then we will have to compromise that too. Soon we can call ourselves sunni for the basis of our entire religion has been taken down.

Unity is not compromising of faith, unity is ACCEPTANCE of eachothers beliefs and being able to TOLERATE it without wanting to kill eachother. It is important you understand this!
And nobody is saying for you to curse them 100 times a day. I personally, had i had time would do it much more than this, however i am sad to say i do not. What you are forcing yourself not to understand is that you can learn the characters of the ma'sumen and do tawassul and send salams AS WELL AS do tabarra and curse. There is tabarra AS WELL AS tawalla in furoo' al deen. They come together side by side. It is our duty to LOVE ahlulbayte and HATE their enemies.

As i said before, if you can hate without cursing then very good for you. But this does not give you a right to question the practice or preach it is not necesarry or not good because ahlulbayte have said otherwise!

And sister, with all due respect it seems you are the one that keeps arguing and rearguing the same issues over and over again even after they have been answered to. With a healthy debate lies the ability to accept that you may be wrong, and leave it at that. Debating for the sake of debating is not healthy sister.

Please do not take this as an attack or insult and really think about what i have said.

Wasalam.
Salam Almuslim

I do not understand why you would attack a brother because of an innocent question which he has all the right to ask (take a look at the debate being had in this thread). Jihad is as much a shia term as it is sunni, and we name jihad just as much as sunnis do so i dont understand the basis of your attack on this level, and asking a question was never haram, if you aren't able to answer it mannerly refrain from posting at all. You show less respect than what you seem to accuse "radical sunnis" of, and this is hypocritical behaviour even if you dont mean it to be so, so be careful of your words.

Wasalam.

Salam,


With respect, I have made my views known repeatedly and it seems that there is a somewhat over-zealous attitude within this forum. The reason why I have to repeat myself is because of the lack of open-mindedness within elements of the Shia community


I am NOT debating for the sake of it. I am making valid points. Quite frankly, it is not my fault that the more conservative Shia are afraid of discussion. If the non-Muslim heard the way you talk they would think we really are a bunch of fundamentalists!


I made my views known on this forum because it is relevant to the subject matter. I have stated many times now that this is my personal opinion and others will have theirs and will still believe in those principles come what may(do you think that if a person came along and started arguing against the existence of God, for example, that all the Muslims wouldn't suddenly become atheists?! ) I have just raised some issues that I think are worth reflecting on.


I am answerable to Allah(swt) and not to the likes of you. With respect, the sister is quite capable of responding to my posts by herself. Or, are you an alim who feels the need to tell me off for debating controversial issues within the Shia fiqh?

Edited by Zara28, 03 August 2007 - 06:13 PM.

[Faithfully999]

Bismillaah.   As salaamu 'alaykum.  We have no right, to hate anything but sin.  But regarding cursing, I would follow the Qur'aans injunction. The following is concerning Prophet 'Isa [PBUH], but [IMO] should still be valid:

3:60.  (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of the disputers.
3:61.  But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.  Shakir's Quran Translation.


Salaam.   Faithfully999

Edited by Faithfully999, 04 August 2007 - 06:33 AM.

[Whizbee]

I don't understand why people start shouting "unity" whenever it comes to cursing the usurpers. Just because we curse these people doesn't mean we are out to get the Sunnis or that we want to kill them all or something. We want unity but not at the price of our beliefs and such unity is possible.

Let them not tell us what to do (like asking us to stop cursing the killers of Syeda Zahra (sa)) and not meddle with our beliefs and yes, we want unity with them. But if they want us to start changing our beliefs, stop cursing those whom the Ahlul bayt , from the Holy Prophet to Syeda Zahra (sa) to the Imams have cursed, then sorry, we don't want such "unity".

Edited by Whizbee, 04 August 2007 - 10:43 AM.

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 4 2007, 04:08 AM, said:

Yes, it is my personal opinion and I am sorry but there is some truth in what I have said. Again, people will agree or disagree, it is a personal thing and if you, or others believe it is recommended to curse  and are strong in that conviction, then my views should not change yours or those of other Shia.

Sister, can you tell me what 'truth' exists in your personal opinion? Rather you are picking and choosing beliefs as you deem correct, not as the Ahlul Bayt (A) have taught. If cursing was wrong, the Ahlul Bayt (A) wouldn't called upon hatred and cursing of their enemies.

I'm sorry to say, but your personal beliefs are just that. Personal opinion. They are not the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (A). Once the Ahlul Bayt (A) have said we should, then our personal opinions do not matter whether they are correct or not according to our understanding, or whether it is better than other `aamal. Otherwise, we are following our own religion, not Islam - ironically which you want to unite.

I don't see how cursing once or 100 times makes a difference especially if we are doing it with adab as the Ahlul Bayt (A) have taught us. And as I said before, tabarra is absolutely NOT the factor of "disunity" BUT WILAYAH. We have been Rafedis from the past 1400 years and we always will be. Your arguments are flawed and the rest of your points were sidetracking from the questions I posed.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. If I've offended you in the bargain, I apologise. And if you still want traditions on cursing the enemies and how much it is recommended, then there's always the PM facility.

Edited by SpIzo, 04 August 2007 - 12:02 PM.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 4 2007, 11:53 AM, said:

Sister, can you tell me what 'truth' exists in your personal opinion? Rather you are picking and choosing beliefs as you deem correct, not as the Ahlul Bayt (A) have taught. If cursing was wrong, the Ahlul Bayt (A) wouldn't called upon hatred and cursing of their enemies.

I'm sorry to say, but your personal beliefs are just that. Personal opinion. They are not the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (A). Once the Ahlul Bayt (A) have said we should, then our personal opinions do not matter whether they are correct or not according to our understanding, or whether it is better than other `aamal. Otherwise, we are following our own religion, not Islam - ironically which you want to unite.

I don't see how cursing once or 100 times makes a difference especially if we are doing it with adab as the Ahlul Bayt (A) have taught us. And as I said before, tabarra is absolutely NOT the factor of "disunity" BUT WILAYAH. We have been Rafedis from the past 1400 years and we always will be. Your arguments are flawed and the rest of your points were sidetracking from the questions I posed.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic. If I've offended you in the bargain, I apologise. And if you still want traditions on cursing the enemies and how much it is recommended, then there's always the PM facility.

I am aware there are narrations where cursing has been prescribed. Did I not say that I do recite Tawwusul and where it clearly states "curse the enemies of Allah(who have oppresed them and will oppress them")?

What I have been trying to drive home for like the umpteenth time is that there are other ways of getting closer to Masumeen(as) and showing loyalty without cursing excessively. And I'm sorry, but these do have a negative impact on the rest of the Ummah. I didn't say it is forbidden or that you have to stop cursing in the privacy of your homes, or in the mosques, just that we should be mindful not to offend the sensitivites of our Sunni brethren. This doesn't mean we want to 'kiss up' to their leaders and to suggest otherwise is rather immature.  Nor, I would like to point out, did I suggest that tabara was the sole reason for Sunni animosity towards Shia. I said it cannot be ruled out as a contributing factor. This means that we should be careful when cursing in front of others. If educating Sunnis about their history is something to be encouraged then we have to do so in a sensitive manner.

Edited by Zara28, 04 August 2007 - 02:04 PM.

[Zara28]

Whizbee, on Aug 4 2007, 10:32 AM, said:

I don't understand why people start shouting "unity" whenever it comes to cursing the usurpers. Just because we curse these people doesn't mean we are out to get the Sunnis or that we want to kill them all or something. We want unity but not at the price of our beliefs and such unity is possible.

Let them not tell us what to do (like asking us to stop cursing the killers of Syeda Zahra (sa)) and not meddle with our beliefs and yes, we want unity with them. But if they want us to start changing our beliefs, stop cursing those whom the Ahlul bayt , from the Holy Prophet to Syeda Zahra (sa) to the Imams have cursed, then sorry, we don't want such "unity".

I think I have responded to the points you have made in my replies to the sisters on here.

Edited by Zara28, 04 August 2007 - 02:06 PM.

[Zara28]

3ashiqatAlZahraa, on Aug 3 2007, 10:57 PM, said:

^ Salam

{(63) And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";}
I think the bolded part is enough for me to say goodbye, you have disrespected me, belittled me and then said "with respect"?

Masha'Allah. Anyhow, although i am leaving i will answer your question, yes the sister is capable of responding on her own, however might i remind you #1, this "debate forum" as you like to call it is open to everybody, and when your points are so easily answerable i think anybody with the answer is allowed to, and #2, this debate started between me and you to begin with, so i don't see what your problem is.

Wasalam "sister".

W/salam.

It was not my intention to belittle or disrespect you and I apologise if my response(s) have come across in that way. When I said 'the likes of you' I meant another human being, those other than God should not judge others. Apologies, once again for my tactless reply.

Yes, this is a debate forum and, of course, you have full right to respond to other posts, unfortuately, I was rather irrate when I wrote that post to you and I guess let my frustration of having to repeat my points get the better of me.




Salams.

Edited by Zara28, 04 August 2007 - 02:26 PM.

[Whizbee]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 12:36 AM, said:

I think I have responded to the points you have made in my replies to the sisters on here.

You have given your opinion, yes, which unfortunately means nothing when it comes to our beliefs. Refer to the words of the Ahlul Bayt and see the importance they have given to cursing.

Quote

In Majmau'l Nurayn wa Muntaqiu'l Bahrayn, Shaykh Hurr Amili (A.R.) writes:

Once Imam `Ali (A.S.) was doing tawaf of Ka`bah; he saw a person holding onto the curtain, reciting Salawaat. Imam went and conveyed his salaam to him; the next time he did the tawaf, he did not go to the man to say salaam. So the man came to him and asked why he had not greeted him. Imam said:

"I feared lest I stopped you from doing la`n, for surely la`n is afDal than salaam, the reply to salaam and sending Salawaat."

http://www.shiachat....h...780&st=1710

[Zara28]

Whizbee, on Aug 4 2007, 02:24 PM, said:

You have given your opinion, yes, which unfortunately means nothing when it comes to our beliefs. Refer to the words of the Ahlul Bayt and see the importance they have given to cursing.
http://www.shiachat....h...780&st=1710

You are missing the point. I did not give my views because I am challenging the 'legality' of tabara, rather I was suggesting other ways that Shias can show loyalty and love without having to curse. Why the negativity all the time? You think that is healthy? My other points on unity remain the same. There is no need to cause divisions by being openly hostile towards their leaders. Open, meaning in the public eye where they will witness this cursing. There is no justification for such conduct.

[Zara28]

Whizbee, on Aug 4 2007, 02:40 PM, said:

Define negativity. Hating those who murdered Syeda Zahra (sa) is "negativity"?

That response is a tad melodramatic!

Having hatred towards those who caused harm and pain towards Masumeen(as) is fully justified. I was refering to the outward displays of hatred that can be witnesed by others and taken entitely the wrong way. Before responding to that last sentence, please check with my previous post on sensitivities if you don't understand what I am getting at by that last statement.

Salams.

[Whizbee]

I deleted my post. I went back and read you first post and decided that I didn't want to continue this further.

You said:

Zara28, on Jul 31 2007, 06:25 AM, said:

I don't know about it being wajib, but I personally think that cursing is not something to be encouraged. If we take Ameeril Mumineen(as) and Imam Hussein's(as) examples of how they showed compassion towards their ememies.. should we not then be following that example if we are true followers of Ahlulbait?

But when we show proof that it is indeed encouraged by the Ahlul Bayt , you say:

Quote

There is no need to cause divisions by being openly hostile towards their leaders. Open, meaning in the public eye where they will witness this cursing. There is no justification for such conduct.

Keep changing your stance if you want to. I'm out.

Salam.

Edited by Whizbee, 04 August 2007 - 02:53 PM.