141 replies to this topic

[Whizbee]

Rawshni, on Aug 6 2007, 04:19 PM, said:

Yes. The only point of contention is that are we here to do as we please, even if to appease others or soothe their sentiments etc, or to do what Allah requires us to do.

You summed up the whole thing really well.

That's my khala

Zara28, on Aug 7 2007, 05:19 AM, said:

Cursing 100 times a day is open for interpetation. The fact that there are different versions means that it is open for debate. Yes, times have changed since the days of Masumeen which is what I was trying to say from the onset, but it seems people only hear what they want to.  I think you need to understand that shiaism is not just about ritual. People like you embarass me!
It makes you heard-hearted by cursing so much(for reasons I have repeatedly mentioned!!) Why can't you recite  Tawassul, or you are afraid you go to hell if you don't?

Mashallah, sister.

You talk about personal choices, fine, do as you please. But what gives you the right to criticize me like this when I am doing something which pleases Allah (swt), which was done by the Ahlul Bayt ?

And I am not interested in how I make you feel. I don’t live to please you. Or the Sunnis.

Brother layman, I hope you understand her now.

1) I follow "rituals" when I curse.

2) I “embarrass” her.

3) Cursing makes me hardhearted.

And I am not even talking about cursing in public.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 7 2007, 09:59 AM, said:

LOL. I knew you would respond in that manner. See, how you feel when you use the word 'should'. It is an authoritative auxiliary verb, a sort of a stricter form of 'can't'.

Yes, you have every right to express your view [bro layman- she herself said it!] but this is a public forum, where people have every right to criticise it.

Well perhaps you 'should' be more careful in the way you express your own opinions. From the very onset of this thread I have been attacked for my argument, though is nothing wrong or sinful in what I have said, but it seems that others want to dictate how Islam has to be implemented.  I was looking at the issue of cursing from a different angle and have had a somewhat fanatical response, because I think with an open-mind.  


I have never said to anyone per se that they shouldn't or 'cant' curse 100 times and people know that. I was looking at the effects of cursing and offering a different perspective on how we can show loyalty towards Masumeen(as) whilst taking the other issues into account. I only started to get irrate when others jumped on the bandwagon.

[Zara28]

Whizbee, on Aug 7 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

You summed up the whole thing really well.

That's my khala
Mashallah, sister.

You talk about personal choices, fine, do as you please. But what gives you the right to criticize me like this when I am doing something which pleases Allah (swt), which was done by the Ahlul Bayt ?

And I am not interested in how I make you feel. I don�t live to please you. Or the Sunnis.

Brother layman, I hope you understand her now.

1) I follow "rituals" when I curse.

2) I �embarrass� her.

3) Cursing makes me hardhearted.

And I am not even talking about cursing in public.

Your response is bordering on fanatical!

I have explained my stance several times and have used logic to back up what I am saying. Others on this forum do not have a problem understanding my perspective, but it seems you have difficulty.


Your statement that you are "not interested" how you have made me feel convinces me that you have serious issue with yourself. Perhaps you will be concerned when you realise that hurting another Muslim  also brings burden on to you.Your earlier comment that I am somehow NOT a follower of Ahlalbait(a) is not only highly offensive, but very judgmental.."You know we should give up. She is way too smart for us. We are relying on the instructions of the Ahlul Bayt as.gif but she doesn't need to follow them she has her own personal opinions you see."


You think because you curse 100 times a day that you will be meet Rasoolilah in your final resting place?! You think that you are better Shia than me, because I choose not to and have good reason..(though I read Tawwasul everyday)? Your arguments are flawed and quite frankly, I care little about your opinions and can understand why your Sunni friends don't want anything to do with you! Your attitude is enough to put anyone off!


The reason why I said you embarrass me is because your approach is rather childish! Not only must I repeat the same points to you, but your reaction is illogical. The problem is when Muslims obsess with the ritual side that they lose sight of behaviour..which is even more important.  It is no good fixating with the 100 times cursing if you are going to ignore the more important aspect of Islam. Being an example is one of them.


Yes, cursing excessively makes you hate..it's natural.  Then you begin to feel animosity towards your Sunni brothers and sisters without you realising it. And please don't say "if that was the case, Imams wouldn't have allowed it!". Just because there may not have been cases it doesn't mean it won't happen!  I can tell you this now sectarinism is from shatan becomes it promotes disunity and it's wrong!

Edited by Zara28, 07 August 2007 - 03:54 PM.

[Whizbee]

Zara28, on Aug 8 2007, 01:47 AM, said:

I care little about your opinions and can understand why your Sunni friends don't want anything to do with you! Your attitude is enough to put anyone off!

And I am judgemental? LOL. And no, my Sunni friends don't get put off by me, they love me. I am so popular mashallah.

Quote

Yes, cursing excessively makes you hate..it's natural.

Tell that to Ali . He prefers cursing to salam.

Anyways, enough of this. I'm done with this thread. You are too smart for me.

Salam.

Edited by Whizbee, 07 August 2007 - 03:25 PM.

[Zara28]

Whizbee, on Aug 7 2007, 03:23 PM, said:

And I am judgemental? LOL. And no, my Sunni friends don't get put off by me, they love me. I am so popular mashallah.
Tell that to Ali . He prefers cursing to salam.

Anyways, enough of this. I'm done with this thread. You are too smart for me.

Salam.

Salams


Apologies I misread you previous post and read it as "have decided to not communicate with me..".

And you know Amereelmu'mineen do you? You have been with him through out history and was able to discuss the issues of the time in relation to future events? You can vouch that he would encourage us to curse even if we develop contempt towards our fellow Muslims? Please think before you reply.

Do your friends know you curse and what do you say to them?

Edited by Zara28, 07 August 2007 - 03:56 PM.

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 7 2007, 12:33 AM, said:

And neither should you! It is my choice not to and I have full right to express that view and will carrying on doing so.

Whizbee, on Aug 7 2007, 04:40 PM, said:

And I am not even talking about cursing in public.

Zara28, on Aug 7 2007, 09:17 PM, said:

Your response is bordering on fanatical!
thank god that there is a recognition here, fanatical as opposed to fundamentalist

Yes, cursing excessively makes you hate..it's natural.  Then you begin to feel animosity towards your Sunni brothers and sisters without you realising it. And please don't say "if that was the case, Imams wouldn't have allowed it!". Just because there may not have been cases it doesn't mean it won't happen!  I can tell you this now sectarinism is from shatan becomes it promotes disunity and it's wrong!

this is your conjecture.
i think of my sunni brothers as my muslim brothers and in need of hidaya. i have no hate for them. don't you understand it is the nasibis who are off the list of muslim brotherhood, and even in these nasibis one has to differentiate between the evil and the illiterate.

tabarra (laan) is wajib
saying it loudly to people who have no knowledge and will get offended is a sin.

sis looks like we are hardening your stand for reasons which only you understand, or possibly there is a fault in our delivery.

let me quote a quranic aya before i go.
[Shakir 36:47] And when it is said to them: Spend out of what Allah has given you, those who disbelieve say to those who believe: Shall we feed him whom, if Allah please, He could feed? You are in naught but clear error.

logically true but Allah(swt) says they are in clear error, i remembered this from hardening the stance.

[Zara28]

haideriam, on Aug 7 2007, 03:54 PM, said:

this is your conjecture.
i think of my sunni brothers as my muslim brothers and in need of hidaya. i have no hate for them. don't you understand it is the nasibis who are off the list of muslim brotherhood, and even in these nasibis one has to differentiate between the evil and the illiterate.

tabarra (laan) is wajib
saying it loudly to people who have no knowledge and will get offended is a sin.

sis looks like we are hardening your stand for reasons which only you understand, or possibly there is a fault in our delivery.

let me quote a quranic aya before i go.
[Shakir 36:47] And when it is said to them: Spend out of what Allah has given you, those who disbelieve say to those who believe: Shall we feed him whom, if Allah please, He could feed? You are in naught but clear error.

logically true but Allah(swt) says they are in clear error, i remembered this from hardening the stance.

And i keep saying that you can still curse(TAWWASul) and get your 'message' across without fixating on cursing so many times. Do you think God doesn't know who you are refering to when you say "enemies of Allah and Imams". Please think a little deeper.


Well, good for you that you say you don't have hatred towards your brethren, but you are just one person. I am talking generally.

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 7 2007, 10:00 PM, said:

And i keep saying that you can still curse(TAWWASul) and get your 'message' across without fixating on cursing so many times. Do you think God doesn't know who you are refering to when you say "enemies of Allah and Imams". Please think a little deeper.
Well, good for you that you say you don't have hatred towards your brethren, but you are just one person. I am talking generally.

this is another meaning you have no idea of. i have not fixed the quantity. it is the prescribed quantity.
sis  who are you to choose one dua over another. stop thinking that you know it all, you do not have the requisite knowledge to pass judgement. on the other hand we are only sticking to the duas of the masoomeen(as). it says in the quran that the people are not believers but they only say it with the tongue, they will not be believers till their heart believes. the belief of the heart is not to express your conjecture when the aimmah(as) have spoken. it is to do as they have prescribed.

Allah(swt) sure knows who the enemies are but it is the likes of us who will forget over a period of time.
these references are absolutely necessary so that something can be measured against their actions.
sis afterall 2/3 of the quran is history to draw parables.

like you will see that it is the disbelievers who always questioned the prophets and said that you are only men like us. so whenever a person says that a prophet is a man like us he is in manifest error.

have you read those posts that i gave the links for. and you are conveniently choosing to reply to what you think you have a point for.  
there is absolutely no point in you saying that i read tawassul and not ziarat ashura. you are not gonna get any points here.  you are in manifest error. who can say you will stop reading tawassul next. you are on a very slippery slope here my sis.

Edited by haideriam, 07 August 2007 - 05:14 PM.

[SpIzo]

I have nothing more to say and would like to end this discussion with this hadith:

Imam Sajjad (A) said:
'Certainly the religion of Allah, the Almighty cannot be acquired by deficient intellects and false opinions and erroneous conjecture, it is achieved only through submission. Then one who submits to us is safe and one who follows us is guided. And one who acts based on his opinion and conjecture is destroyed. And the one who objects to a thing that we have said or decreed has disbelieved in the One who has revealed the Seven Verses (Surah al-Hamd) and the Holy Qur'an, while he is unaware (of his disbelief)'

Kamaluddin, Ch31, Tradition #9

[Zara28]

haideriam, on Aug 7 2007, 04:56 PM, said:

this is another meaning you have no idea of. i have not fixed the quantity. it is the prescribed quantity.
sis  who are you to choose one dua over another. stop thinking that you know it all, you do not have the requisite knowledge to pass judgement. on the other hand we are only sticking to the duas of the masoomeen(as). it says in the quran that the people are not believers but they only say it with the tongue, they will not be believers till their heart believes. the belief of the heart is not to express your conjecture when the aimmah(as) have spoken. it is to do as they have prescribed.

Allah(swt) sure knows who the enemies are but it is the likes of us who will forget over a period of time.
these references are absolutely necessary so that something can be measured against their actions.
sis afterall 2/3 of the quran is history to draw parables.

like you will see that it is the disbelievers who always questioned the prophets and said that you are only men like us. so whenever a person says that a prophet is a man like us he is in manifest error.

have you read those posts that i gave the links for. and you are conveniently choosing to reply to what you think you have a point for.  
there is absolutely no point in you saying that i read tawassul and not ziarat ashura. you are not gonna get any points here.  you are in manifest error. who can say you will stop reading tawassul next. you are on a very slippery slope here my sis.

You keep repeating the same points whilst ignoring mine. Btw, I have read all of your posts, thank you.I think you know I have a good argument which is why you and the other slightly fundementalist on here get so unbelievably self-rightous.


You are fixating because of YOUR need to curse 100 times. If a person chooses to read Tawwasul over Ashura, that is their choice and not down to you! I think you would prefer to arm yourself with as much hatred so it keeps the fire burning towards yout Sunni brethren. Please don't make any more excuses for yourself. I have already made my views know several times if not more.

Oh and by the way, I am fully within my rights to read Tawwasul and not Ashura if I so wish. I have asked advice from a Shia alim who is very well respected in the community and even supports me in reading Tawwasul everyday - it has great benefits that I have personally expreience since doing so.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 8 2007, 02:17 PM, said:

I have nothing more to say and would like to end this discussion with this hadith:

Imam Sajjad (A) said:
'Certainly the religion of Allah, the Almighty cannot be acquired by deficient intellects and false opinions and erroneous conjecture, it is achieved only through submission. Then one who submits to us is safe and one who follows us is guided. And one who acts based on his opinion and conjecture is destroyed. And the one who objects to a thing that we have said or decreed has disbelieved in the One who has revealed the Seven Verses (Surah al-Hamd) and the Holy Qur'an, while he is unaware (of his disbelief)'

Kamaluddin, Ch31, Tradition #9

You always say you 'have nothing more to say' lol!


Very beautiful hadeeth, there's no doubt about that Sis, but you are taking it out of context to suit your argument.


My argument still remains the same and I think Imam Sajjad(a) knows what I have been trying to get at. Trust me Sis, members of the Masumeen(A) are closer to me than YOU think!!

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 8 2007, 08:44 PM, said:

You keep repeating the same points whilst ignoring mine. Btw, I have read all of your posts, thank you.I think you know I have a good argument which is why you and the other slightly fundementalist on here get so unbelievably self-rightous.
You are fixating because of YOUR need to curse 100 times. If a person chooses to read Tawwasul over Ashura, that is their choice and not down to you! I think you would prefer to arm yourself with as much hatred so it keeps the fire burning towards yout Sunni brethren. Please don't make any more excuses for yourself. I have already made my views know several times if not more.

Oh and by the way, I am fully within my rights to read Tawwasul and not Ashura if I so wish. I have asked advice from a Shia alim who is very well respected in the community and even supports me in reading Tawwasul everyday - it has great benefits that I have personally expreience since doing so.

from fundamentalist to fanatical to slightly fundamentalist.............this is what your conjecture does to you.

sis i swear by Allah(swt) and the masumeen(as) that even if you had an iota of correctness in your argument, i would be the first one to accept it.

the reason i am here to argue the other side is because i feel your argument is flawed.

i don't know what is so hard to get sis, i have repeated a hundred times that sunnis are my brothers, and not just metaphorically but literally too(cousins). how can i hate someone for his/her ignorance. that is unfair and not right.

i repeat again the fixation you talk about is not mine, it is from the masumeen(as).
sis you have a choice to read ziarat ashura but when you do the choice ends there for you have to read what is prescribed. also you do not have a choice to give weightage to any particular dua over another. the only choice you have is to read what you want to. if there was such a thing as weightage, ashura would tip the scales by far.

now tell me what stops you from not reciting tawassul next, as you are choosing according to your own whims. as you said yourself that tawassul also has laan in it and one fine morning you might decide that in your hippy hippy land/whirling dervish frame of mind that this is not quite right. there should be no laans in our goody goody/PC/appeasement lives. and you say no tawassul for me.

at the lower level of iman yes you are within your rights to choose what you read, but at the higher spiritual level these duas become a sort of a fard. it is like for the prophet   salat ul layl was fard whereas for else it is not.

and by the way people at the higher level of iman and when they are closer to the aimah(as) do not shout about it. it is a closely guarded secret. it is mainly the people from india and pakistan who like to profess their higher state of spirituality. and no stars for guessing why. for they have none/JALI PIR.
believe me i have cousins  as well who are 'spiritually gifted' . don't know their elbow ...... and all i have to say to shut them up is that if you are so spiritually charged move the picture for me. well they start to turn red and black and blue. but guess what. the picture stays exactly where it was.

why ? for choosing not to read ashura because their whims and conjecture tells them so. if you really feel convinced that it is not the right ziarat to be read then try and prove it unauthentic, that is the correct approach and method.

get out of your stubborn mode, accept with an open heart and Allah(swt) behaqe masoomeen(as) will give you more manifold.

Edited by haideriam, 08 August 2007 - 05:10 PM.

[Zara28]

haideriam, on Aug 8 2007, 04:25 PM, said:

from fundamentalist to fanatical to slightly fundamentalist.............this is what your conjecture does to you.

sis i swear by Allah(swt) and the masumeen(as) that even if you had an iota of correctness in your argument, i would be the first one to accept it.

the reason i am here to argue the other side is because i feel your argument is flawed.

i don't know what is so hard to get sis, i have repeated a hundred times that sunnis are my brothers, and not just metaphorically but literally too(cousins). how can i hate someone for his/her ignorance. that is unfair and not right.

i repeat again the fixation you talk about is not mine, it is from the masumeen(as).
sis you have a choice to read ziarat ashura but when you do the choice ends there for you have to read what is prescribed. also you do not have a choice to give weightage to any particular dua over another. the only choice you have is to read what you want to. if there was such a thing as weightage, ashura would tip the scales by far.

now tell me what stops you from not reciting tawassul next, as you are choosing according to your own whims. as you said yourself that tawassul also has laan in it and one fine morning you might decide that in your hippy hippy land/whirling dervish frame of mind that this is not quite right. there should be no laans in our goody goody/PC/appeasement lives. and you say no tawassul for me.

at the lower level of iman yes you are within your rights to choose what you read, but at the higher spiritual level these duas become a sort of a fard. it is like for the prophet   salat ul layl was fard whereas for else it is not.

and by the way people at the higher level of iman and when they are closer to the aimah(as) do not shout about it. it is a closely guarded secret. it is mainly the people from india and pakistan who like to profess their higher state of spirituality. and no stars for guessing why. for they have none/JALI PIR.
believe me i have cousins  as well who are 'spiritually gifted' . don't know their elbow ...... and all i have to say to shut them up is that if you are so spiritually charged move the picture for me. well they start to turn red and black and blue. but guess what. the picture stays exactly where it was.

why ? for choosing not to read ashura because their whims and conjecture tells them so. if you really feel convinced that it is not the right ziarat to be read then try and prove it unauthentic, that is the correct approach and method.

get out of your stubborn mode, accept with an open heart and Allah(swt) behaqe masoomeen(as) will give you more manifold.

Bro, I would strongly advise you evaluate what you are saying, because it comes across as very childish, I am sorry to say. I have explained why I do Tawwasul many many times now and in a way that is very clear and easy to comprehend. Your response has been such that it appears you have not been paying attention atall. Moreover, you choose to express yourself with rather immature vocabulary. Scroll up and you will see.


Thank you for judging the level of my imaan, but that is not up to you. My closeness to Masumeen(a) is not for you to scrutinise. I know what I know and don't need your approval. I mentioned that I have had positive experiences so I am not accused of being some kind of heathen. I don't normally disclose what is private to anyone, but because I have been indirectly accused of not being a follower of Ahlulbait(a) on previous posts here - I felt compelled to!


I think you have already understood my arguments, but you pretend that you, indeed do not understand.  Others can read that you are actually guilty of what you accuse me of: stubborness.


I choose to do Tawwasul over Ashura because that is I feel comfortable with and I am quite within my rights to do so. Yes, Bro I will this to you one more time: I am fully aware that Tawwasul has cursing. Did I not draw attention to that fact in many of my posts? I said(and you know this only too well) that God knows who we are refering to when we say "enemies of God and Masumeen") therefore, I do not feel the need to curse that person individually by doing Ashura. This is one of the reasons why I don't do Ashura. And, no, I will not suddenly decide to stop doing Tawwasul everyday. Those who have understand my arguments would have been able to figure that out themselves. I won't need to repeat the same points again and again


I am not commiting any sin by not doing Ashura and have even sought advice from a renowned Shia cleric in my community. And yes, he knows my views very well.


I will say this again to you I am not from Pakistan or India as God is my witness. Or, perhaps my words are not good enough..?

So be it, if that be the case!

I am not answerable to you or anyone except God, so please think about that when you want to reply.


I have made my views known countless times and am not going to come back on this thread as I don't wish to repeat myself when there are others who pretend to act 'dumb'.I have put forward valid arguments that Iam sure many may reflect on. I have never said Z. ashura was prohibited(though some have tried to completely twist my words ) I have listed the reasons why there are other ways of getting closer to Ahlulbait(a) and  other reasons, which I have gone into greater length earlier on in the thread. Also, why we should pay attention to how the Masumeen(a) shown campassion towards their enemies(even if that was to show as a prime example of noble Islamic behaviour)



I will not respond to you or any other post, as I feel I have said all I wanted to say. I am pleased that there are other members who keep an open mind and use maturity when evaluating the arguments.


Salams.

Edited by Zara28, 09 August 2007 - 01:59 PM.

[haideriam]

sis

you are constantly chopping and changing your stance and position as has been pointed out to you on various occassions, without ofcourse giving due acknowledgement to the poster who swayed you and your argument  just that little bit.

shall i tell you why?

the reason being that you are chopping and changing to seem PC/goody good/score a point/win and not because you have learnt  anything, because learning is acknowledgement.

reason is simple?

stubborn people never learn, they fade away, but never learn.

there are so many inconsistencies in your posts that it makes one wonder, is this person for real.
a saner person would have realized earlier that the logic they are presenting is flawed and would have either accepted that or withdrawn earlier for more consultation with more reading material.

you are at the point where the inconsistincies being pointed out to you make no difference to you, for you think like it is a young school classroom debate where the person who gets the most words in will be the winner.

sis, fundamentalism or the more correct slightly fundamentalist, hey make it better enlightened moderate by the halo on my head, are not terms synonmous with bigotry and fanatical.
let me tell you what is synonmous with bigotry and fanatical. it is stubborness

like they say when the ideas and the words dont work, bring the spiritual halo into play.

[lesoizas]

YAM

Walanallaho ummatan qatalatka, Walanallaho ummatan zalamatka, Walanallaho ummatan same'at be zaalika farazeyat beh

10th phase of Furu-e-Deen, Ziarate Ashura, Ziarate Waresa, Dua Thanamiye Quraish... etc .... y dont u just ban it for shiaism.... just go on .... this will surely show ur love for the enemies of ahlulbayt ... i know my words r goin in air ... but m writing only n only for jaza.

A simple Logic...
One hates the enemies of thier parents only bcoz they love thier parents... and wat if its vice versa...
wat if they doesnt love thier parents ???
are they still goin to hate thier enemies...

Lets first make a unity among ourselves ... among shia's and then talk about the unity with others ....
i remember the sher at this moment ...

Ittehad unse apna ho nahi sakta kabhi ,
Bewafao se na hargis tu wafa ki baat kar.

Anyways ,

Allahumma laana awwala wa saaniya wa salelsa ....

Khuda hafiz
Ali wairs

[Whizbee]

Ayatullah Sistani says it's mustahab.

[SyedHusayn]

This is the new found power of the internet where everyone is expressing their views, May Allah protect us from the people who sow the seed of such thoughts where this respected Lady is doing Tabarrah not from the enemies of Ahlebait(as), but from cursing them, sister you are wrong and don't think that your life or all our lives are more than one breath of shahzadi Fatima(sa), she has prescribed the actions of tabarra and it is our duty to follow then. If cursing wasn't effective then the prophet wouldn't have gone for the Mubahela. Our closeness to the Ahlebait(as) is directly propostionate to our disassociation from their enemies.