141 replies to this topic

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 01:44 PM, said:

So you agree that the Shi'a can curse how much ever they want. Thank you very much. You've just gone against your personal opinion and all your arguments of 100 cursing per day.

It was a pleasure discussing with you albeit with heightened tension and perceived accusations.

Er, sorry, but I have never suggested otherwise. I gave my own personal opinions, I have never said Shias CANT. It is their own choice. I have always maintained that, but others don't listen, sadly.

[A follower]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 01:47 PM, said:

Sorry, I will say this for the very last time, for I fear that I will say something I will regret as my patience is being stretched to the limit.
I was trying to make you(and some of the others on here) that, though it is allowed and perscribed, it is not so awful if you don't curse and I gave examples of that I don't know how many times, but it seems that some Shias are intent on cursing excesisvely come what may and cannot see the very basic logic of what I have been saying.

Maybe you need to read my question again. I merely asked you that in their lifetimes did the Imams [as] ever stop someone from excessive cursing or did they narrate a saying by which they said that one should not curse excessively? That is what I asked.

Quote

You offended my by suggesting that I am not following Ahlulbait(i.e because of my personal choice not to curse excessively.) You can find that reply if you scroll up.

Please find me where did I state that? I have never stated you are not following the Ahlul Bayt [as]. Do point out to me where did I made such an accusation? If I have not then you have attributed a false statement to me.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 01:30 PM, said:

^Nobody here is talking about cursing IN PUBLIC.
Okay, if that's what she meant, then her personal opinion becomes null and she has contradicted all her points stating the excessive limit as 100 curses per day.

This is my last post in here. FOR THE FINAL TIME. Apologies if I've offended anyone. It was not my intention to hurt/offend the sister in any way.

No actually it hasn't. The problem lies when people don't READ my posts properly! I have never said Shias CANT. I said and have always said it is a personal choice. You are proof to me that my posts are not being undderstood properly!!!

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 01:44 PM, said:

So you agree that the Shi'a can curse how much ever they want. Thank you very much. You've just gone against your personal opinion and all your arguments of 100 cursing per day.

It was a pleasure discussing with you albeit with heightened tension and perceived accusations.

Sorry, I will say this for the very last time, for I fear that I will say something I will regret as my patience is being stretched to the limit.


I was trying to make you(and some of the others on here) that, though it is allowed and perscribed, it is not so awful if you don't curse and I gave examples of that I don't know how many times, but it seems that some Shias are intent on cursing excesisvely come what may and cannot see the very basic logic of what I have been saying.

You offended my by suggesting that I am not following Ahlulbait(i.e because of my personal choice not to curse excessively.) You can find that reply if you scroll up.

[Zara28]

A follower, on Aug 5 2007, 01:52 PM, said:

Maybe you need to read my question again. I merely asked you that in their lifetimes did the Imams [as] ever stop someone from excessive cursing or did they narrate a saying by which they said that one should not curse excessively? That is what I asked.
Please find me where did I state that? I have never stated you are not following the Ahlul Bayt [as]. Do point out to me where did I made such an accusation? If I have not then you have attributed a false statement to me.

Apologies - I sent my reply to the wrong member!


Will respond to you later, I have been arguing on here for a while now and need a break!

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 6 2007, 12:20 AM, said:

Er, sorry, but I have never suggested otherwise. I gave my own personal opinions, I have never said Shias CANT. It is their own choice. I have always maintained that, but others don't listen, sadly.

Yes, because you said 'SHOULD'NT'. And why should people listen to your personal opinion? Especially if not supported by Ahlul Bayt (A)?

I'm sorry I keep saying I won't reply, but you always at the end do an about-turn which 'tempts' me to reply.

As for this:

Quote

You offended my by suggesting that I am not following Ahlulbait(i.e because of my personal choice not to curse excessively.) You can find that reply if you scroll up.

Looks like you really have trouble comprehending. We were merely asking you questions as to whether you would prefer your personal opinion over what the Ahlul Bayt (A) have instructed.

Edited by SpIzo, 06 August 2007 - 11:26 AM.

[Awakened]

Bro a follower, I think she is saying this:

Today we should not encourage cursing certain people because the situation today it causes harm and we should push towards unity. (the issue is cursing outwardly is the same as encouraging outwardly, it causes the same hate, and you know very well how Saudi Arabi is exploiting hate today)

If you look towards the examples of Imams , you would see their lives devoted to helping people and guiding people and showed outmost forbearance and patience. Hence, we should focus on this much needed teaching of Imams .

Ziyarat Aushura - most of the versions don't have anything about the first and 2nd and third, there is only version about that, correct me if I'm wrong.  Anyways, even with the one with referal to the first three in particular, it has no mention of the names, so why not mention the names? It mentions names of others, but the name of the first 3? Their is many reports of ziyarat of Hussain and different versions, how many of them say to curse 100 times? Only one?  Bro, ziyarat aushura is encouraged, but there is more then one version. And the other versions is what we recite at my masjid.

The situation today is different in the past, she isn't against what Ahlulbayt said, but she believes the situation today calls for a different type of action.  

It's true Quran curses Abu Lahab, but did Rasool (saw) come and start cursing all their heroes that got killed? or did he starting cursing all their heroes while he was calling the message?  It curses the enemies of God in general, the Rasool however didn't tell his followers to start cursing them. The Imams however did curse the enemies of God of that time, the oppressors and their supporters,  because their situation was different right?

I tried to shead light on this issue. Some differences are the following:

What occured to Ahlel-Bayt , particularly the first Imam , was not unclear or ambigious. His position was not unclear or ambigious.  Today it's unclear because most people are not aware of the various traditions in praise of Ali . infact, most don't even know of hadithal thaqalain and think the Prophet said "Quran and Suna".

The oppression Imams and their followers were facings was not going to be increased by whether they curse or not.  Cursing rather was a sign of defiance, however, it seemed it didn't have it's proper effect on most of the shias, as the shias yet never got the resolve to overthrow the oppressors.  Cursing the enemies of Imams meant to show opposition to the people who were destroying Islam and were oppressors. It meant to show true support for Imams and resolve to help their cause.

Today however, the enemies of Islam are exploiting division and causing harm to Islam.  Who are the enemies of Imam today? Do you curse them 100 times a day?  Think about the situation,  does it really help to encourage cursing the first two?  Or does it have the opposite impact?  Is it a resolve to oppose the oppressors of our time, or does it instead cause disunity and opposes a united stand against the enemies of Islam?

Did the Imams curse the killers of Yahya constantly, or did they curse the oppressors of this umma? They dealt with their times, their situation.  We need to do the same.

Our situation - scholars today - who are very well aware of the hadiths, are telling us to strive for unity and avoid things that cause disunity.  The sister is just voicing her view, that in the context of today, cursing shouldn't be encouraged and instead, we need to recall the examples of the Imams and try to follow their example more.  She isn't against the hadiths of the Imams , but she sees in a different context and sees the situation today calls for a different approach from her understanding of Quran and Ahlulbayt teachings and examples.  

Did Rasool perscribe curing the killers of the Prophets a hundred times?  But perhaps the Prophets and Awsiya of bani-Israel did bro. Do you get what i'm saying.  Today is cursing the killers of Yahya going to help?  Perhaps it would have helped during time of Isa , Shamoon , etc. But certainly what will it it to today?

This is the different perspective, the encouragement is seen in it's time, but today's time calls perhaps for different approach because the situation is much different.  She is voicing that view, and I agree with this view.  

Now whether people agree with her view or not is another thing, however, it has nothing to do with her believing or not believing the teachings of Imams .  Just a different perspective.

wa salam

Edited by Awakened, 05 August 2007 - 02:10 PM.

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 02:00 PM, said:

Yes, because you said 'SHOULD'NT'. And why should people listen to your personal opinion? Especially if not supported by Ahlul Bayt (A)?

I'm sorry I keep saying I won't reply, but you always at the end do an about-turn which 'tempts' me to reply.

Well, because it is a CHOICE,  that means I am entitled to my opinon and to express that. You do what you want, but others won't always choose to do the same!

[layman]

A follower, on Aug 5 2007, 01:52 PM, said:

Maybe you need to read my question again. I merely asked you that in their lifetimes did the Imams [as] ever stop someone from excessive cursing or did they narrate a saying by which they said that one should not curse excessively? That is what I asked.

to all,

Perhap what she is referring is...

And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did (6:108)

To avoid backfire.

She is suggesting to use CHOICE and Logic in CURSING.

That is what I understood from Zara28.

Layman

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 6 2007, 12:32 AM, said:

Well, because it is a CHOICE,  that means I am entitled to my opinon and to express that. You do what you want, but others won't always choose to do the same!

Yep, so you shouldn't be saying we should be doing this or that. Follow whatever you wish.

[Whizbee]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 11:35 PM, said:

I say this for your own good, those kinds of remarks are not the ones that should be coming from a Muslim of any persuation. Who are YOU to say that I don't follow instructions of the Ahlalbait? You think you are a better follower in the eyes of Imam Zaman because you say that you curse 100 times? And I am a munafiq because I don't?!

Where did I say that?

And I have no problems with you doing what you please but what gives you the right to question this recommended practice?

You asked

but tell me how do you politely explain to your Sunni brother or sister why you curse 100 times a day? Iam interested to know. Do you not think that all this hatred makes a person hard-hearted?

So although we are doing something, which pleases Allah (swt), you feel justified in accusing us of causing "disunity" and being "hard hearted".

[layman]

Whizbee, on Aug 5 2007, 10:50 PM, said:

Where did I say that?

And I have no problems with you doing what you please but what gives you the right to question this recommended practice?

You asked

but tell me how do you politely explain to your Sunni brother or sister why you curse 100 times a day? Iam interested to know. Do you not think that all this hatred makes a person hard-hearted?

So although we are doing something, which pleases Allah (swt), you feel justified in accusing us of causing "disunity" and being "hard hearted".

Salam to All,

I believed that Zara28 did not question the recommended practice.

Examples:  
1. If we go to a pure shunni community during solat.  Do we want to fold the hands or not? It is a matter of choice and logic and hikmah.
2. If we want to pray solat zohor...what is the time we want to pray. It is a matter of choice, logic, and hikmah.

Zara28 did not question the recommended practice, she just taking precautions given the circumstances. She want others to look at her way of viewing about the "cursing to enemies of Ahlulbayt".  The question is the approach.


but tell me how do you politely explain to your Sunni brother or sister why you curse 100 times a day? Iam interested to know. Do you not think that all this hatred makes a person hard-hearted?

My understanding of Zara28 statement is "the sunnis who hear lots of cursing from the shias will then (the sunnis) having hard-hearted".  When the sunnis hear so much cursing from the shias, they may decide not to communicate with shias.  Hence, a shia may lost an opportunity to talk about virtues of ahlulbayt to the sunnis"

Layman.

Edited by layman, 06 August 2007 - 12:02 AM.

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 07:50 PM, said:

Er, sorry, but I have never suggested otherwise. I gave my own personal opinions, I have never said Shias CANT. It is their own choice. I have always maintained that, but others don't listen, sadly.

this is not and i repeat not a personal opinion and choice thing. the methodology is.

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 07:56 PM, said:

No actually it hasn't. The problem lies when people don't READ my posts properly! I have never said Shias CANT. I said and have always said it is a personal choice. You are proof to me that my posts are not being undderstood properly!!!

repeating not a personal choice.

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 07:58 PM, said:

Sorry, I will say this for the very last time, for I fear that I will say something I will regret as my patience is being stretched to the limit.
I was trying to make you(and some of the others on here) that, though it is allowed and perscribed, it is not so awful if you don't curse and I gave examples of that I don't know how many times, but it seems that some Shias are intent on cursing excesisvely come what may and cannot see the very basic logic of what I have been saying.

You offended my by suggesting that I am not following Ahlulbait(i.e because of my personal choice not to curse excessively.) You can find that reply if you scroll up.

see the confusion above, this will result from personal opinion and choice, which is conjecture.
how do you even begin to know what is excessive. don't give weightage to your number crunching over the numbers in the duas.

Zara28, on Aug 5 2007, 08:02 PM, said:

Well, because it is a CHOICE,  that means I am entitled to my opinon and to express that. You do what you want, but others won't always choose to do the same!

sadly it is not a choice and hence you do not have a personal opinion, period.
i only see you in this others' category.

layman, on Aug 6 2007, 05:58 AM, said:

Salam to All,

I believed that Zara28 did not question the recommended practice.

Examples:  
1. If we go to a pure shunni community during solat.  Do we want to fold the hands or not? It is a matter of choice and logic and hikmah.
2. If we want to pray solat zohor...what is the time we want to pray. It is a matter of choice, logic, and hikmah.

Zara28 did not question the recommended practice, she just taking precautions given the circumstances. She want others to look at her way of viewing about the "cursing to enemies of Ahlulbayt".  The question is the approach.


but tell me how do you politely explain to your Sunni brother or sister why you curse 100 times a day? Iam interested to know. Do you not think that all this hatred makes a person hard-hearted?

My understanding of Zara28 statement is "the sunnis who hear lots of cursing from the shias will then (the sunnis) having hard-hearted".  When the sunnis hear so much cursing from the shias, they may decide not to communicate with shias.  Hence, a shia may lost an opportunity to talk about virtues of ahlulbayt to the sunnis"

Layman.

salams all

problems creep up when we have to have sharah of peoples' posts when they are still amongst us.
stop this please. sis zara does not know even what she means leave alone someone else trying to decipher and explain what she is saying and meaning.

she is clearly confused about laan and loud open mouthed cursing in the streets in the midst of the wahabbis. she has been influenced by the PC of some semi secularist shias. PLEASE PLEASE do not take this negatively. there is a nice post in GD under some movie PG13. kindly read and then come back to type your answers. ok as a bonus i will post link here.

http://www.shiachat....topic=234930537

and as an extra bonus kindly read this thread too, it will aid in understanding, especially what bro shabbir writes

http://www.shiachat....topic=234927757

the second loud open mouthed cursing is not a choice but compulsorily forbidden as per the aya quoted above in one of the posts. please try to avoid giving one aya or one ahadith as proof positive, for there is a lot more to it than that. this is the reason we have alims and especially marjas.

and we do not fold our hands in salat unless it is in danger to life and then taqiyya applies.
i have prayed in more sunni mosques than one could care to count and in jamaat too with them with my hands open all the time. the unity is in praying with them and not praying like them ditto.
my dress being different from my brother's dress does not cause disunity. disunity is caused when one of us decides not to dress at all.

so sis zara for the sake of unity
should we abandon azadari?
should we start to pray with our hands folded?
should we accept the legitimacy of the khulafa e rashideen?
should we accept the caliphate of muawiyya?
should we accept the caliphate of yazid?
should we say that imam hussain(as) did err in not giving bayya?
and should we accept all for the sake of unity?

and forget the essence and the ruh of the quran - surah fatiha
and the keeping away from the path of the zalimeen and the wrongdoers
and keeping on the path of the rightful

do you know what shaytan is???
read sura an naas
and then tell me who is the bigger shaytan
the jinn or the human.

for your own sake stop trying to be PC/goody good/whirling dervish sufi.
winning the argument is not learning. losing in understanding and humility is learning.
your posts tell me you want to score a point, and are desperately clutching at straws to win the debate.
even when others gave you a chance to rethink your stance and understanding(page 3), you began to come on even stronger. please don't.

i pray you take this well. you are my sis. you are a lover of the ahlul bayt(as).
not as strong as the ones' who do the laan though, for in their laan they expel all the taghouts out of their heart to make it more spacious for the love of the ahlul bayt(as)

Edited by haideriam, 06 August 2007 - 03:22 AM.

[Whizbee]

layman, on Aug 6 2007, 10:28 AM, said:

Salam to All,

I believed that Zara28 did not question the recommended practice.

She did.

Quote

My understanding of Zara28 statement is "the sunnis who hear lots of cursing from the shias will then (the sunnis) having hard-hearted".  When the sunnis hear so much cursing from the shias, they may decide not to communicate with shias.  Hence, a shia may lost an opportunity to talk about virtues of ahlulbayt to the sunnis"

Layman.

So you have to think of the "others" when you sit at home and recite Ziyarat Ashura?

And I have had many Sunni friends and no, they never have decided not to "communicate" with me because of the beliefs that I hold. If they dictated terms to me, then I would rather stop being friends than accommodate for them.

Edited by Whizbee, 06 August 2007 - 03:09 AM.

[Rawshni]

Whizbee, on Aug 6 2007, 02:32 AM, said:

So you have to think of the "others" when you sit at home and recite Ziyarat Ashura?

Yes. The only point of contention is that are we here to do as we please, even if to appease others or soothe their sentiments etc, or to do what Allah requires us to do.

Quote

And I have had many Sunni friends and no, they never have decided not to "communicate" with me because of the beliefs that I hold. If they dictated terms to me, then I would rather stop being friends than accommodate for them.

That's my girl!

[layman]

Whizbee, on Aug 6 2007, 02:32 AM, said:

So you have to think of the "others" when you sit at home and recite Ziyarat Ashura?

And I have had many Sunni friends and no, they never have decided not to "communicate" with me because of the beliefs that I hold. If they dictated terms to me, then I would rather stop being friends than accommodate for them.

Salam,

I live in a country where almost 98% of the muslims are sunnis.  I have never have much difficulty to communicate the message about ahlulbayt to them.

There are so many things to talk about Islam to the Sunnis.

I read ziarat ashura....everyday, and curse enemies of ahlulbayt everyday.  But the sunnis never hear it from my mouth (here in my place)

I don't accommodate those who are hostile in belief, rather I find ways to deal with them.  Find somethings that is acceptable for them to hear, not controversial.  Then I injected elements of "love to ahlulbayt".

Rasulullah entered and never ran aways from the very harsh environment of "kufr" ...the jahilliyah. He find ways so that the jahiliyyah people get the divine message.  He did not sell the teachings of Islam, but he prepared the society to accept him and the Divine Message.  He suffered because of bad behaviors of lot of people (his own wife), but he was successful.

However, we can take short cut. Just ignore those who are hostile to to our beliefs. It is a matter of choice, logic and hikmah on how to deal with people. It is not a matte of right or wrong, just what we can handle to best of our abilities.

As for the Sister (Zara28), I just try to understand her and what she were saying.  Trying not to upset the situation. Even if she may say something that might be against the practices of mainstream shias, let hear it first and let she say it all. The discussion is not about winning, but more toward better understanding people with different views.

Layman

[sayed_ali]

Can anyone please post Sistani's Fatwa on the Subject!! -- Thank You

Edited by sayed_ali, 06 August 2007 - 11:46 AM.

[SpIzo]

layman, on Aug 6 2007, 04:33 PM, said:

The discussion is not about winning, but more toward better understanding people with different views.

Neither did we discuss with the intention of winning, but it was to understand her point of view. And when the sister did come forth with her point, we tried to first reason it out and point out the flaws in her thinking.

But unfortunately, personal opinions are the order of the day.

Anyway, I still apologise if in case, I've hurt or offended her feelings. It wasn't my intention.

Edited by SpIzo, 06 August 2007 - 01:19 PM.

[Jondab_Azdi]

sayed_ali, on Aug 6 2007, 08:45 PM, said:

Can anyone please post Sistani's Fatwa on the Subject!! -- Thank You

Akhi, you dont have to get the "Fatwa" in such matters. Use the aql Allah (swt) has given you and decide for yourself.

ws

[Zara28]

SpIzo, on Aug 5 2007, 02:04 PM, said:

Yep, so you shouldn't be saying we should be doing this or that. Follow whatever you wish.

And neither should you! It is my choice not to and I have full right to express that view and will carrying on doing so.

[Zara28]

Whizbee, on Aug 6 2007, 02:32 AM, said:

She did.
So you have to think of the "others" when you sit at home and recite Ziyarat Ashura?

And I have had many Sunni friends and no, they never have decided not to "communicate" with me because of the beliefs that I hold. If they dictated terms to me, then I would rather stop being friends than accommodate for them.

So what?! Yes, I and others have challenged your rather fundementalist way of thinking. IT IS NOT WAJIB IT IS A CHOICE..this means I can CHOOSE not to! And I can CHOOSE to express that point of view and so can Layman and any other who has an open mind!  'Awakened' hit everything on the head!


Cursing 100 times a day is open for interpetation. The fact that there are different versions means that it is open for debate. Yes, times have changed since the days of Masumeen which is what I was trying to say from the onset, but it seems people only hear what they want to.  I think you need to understand that shiaism is not just about ritual. People like you embarass me!


It makes you heard-hearted by cursing so much(for reasons I have repeatedly mentioned!!) Why can't you recite  Tawassul, or you are afraid you go to hell if you don't?


Now let me write this for you again: I DON'T CURSE 100 times..it is a CHOICE..a CHOICE.



I will continue to put forward this argument again and again, because it is something Shias need to think about. There are others who don't share your view and are thinking with an open mind.

Edited by Zara28, 06 August 2007 - 07:14 PM.

[Zara28]

haideriam, on Aug 6 2007, 02:04 AM, said:

this is not and i repeat not a personal opinion and choice thing. the methodology is.
repeating not a personal choice.
see the confusion above, this will result from personal opinion and choice, which is conjecture.
how do you even begin to know what is excessive. don't give weightage to your number crunching over the numbers in the duas.
sadly it is not a choice and hence you do not have a personal opinion, period.
i only see you in this others' category.
salams all

problems creep up when we have to have sharah of peoples' posts when they are still amongst us.
stop this please. sis zara does not know even what she means leave alone someone else trying to decipher and explain what she is saying and meaning.

she is clearly confused about laan and loud open mouthed cursing in the streets in the midst of the wahabbis. she has been influenced by the PC of some semi secularist shias. PLEASE PLEASE do not take this negatively. there is a nice post in GD under some movie PG13. kindly read and then come back to type your answers. ok as a bonus i will post link here.

http://www.shiachat....topic=234930537

and as an extra bonus kindly read this thread too, it will aid in understanding, especially what bro shabbir writes

http://www.shiachat....topic=234927757

the second loud open mouthed cursing is not a choice but compulsorily forbidden as per the aya quoted above in one of the posts. please try to avoid giving one aya or one ahadith as proof positive, for there is a lot more to it than that. this is the reason we have alims and especially marjas.

and we do not fold our hands in salat unless it is in danger to life and then taqiyya applies.
i have prayed in more sunni mosques than one could care to count and in jamaat too with them with my hands open all the time. the unity is in praying with them and not praying like them ditto.
my dress being different from my brother's dress does not cause disunity. disunity is caused when one of us decides not to dress at all.

so sis zara for the sake of unity
should we abandon azadari?
should we start to pray with our hands folded?
should we accept the legitimacy of the khulafa e rashideen?
should we accept the caliphate of muawiyya?
should we accept the caliphate of yazid?
should we say that imam hussain(as) did err in not giving bayya?
and should we accept all for the sake of unity?

and forget the essence and the ruh of the quran - surah fatiha
and the keeping away from the path of the zalimeen and the wrongdoers
and keeping on the path of the rightful

do you know what shaytan is???
read sura an naas
and then tell me who is the bigger shaytan
the jinn or the human.

for your own sake stop trying to be PC/goody good/whirling dervish sufi.
winning the argument is not learning. losing in understanding and humility is learning.
your posts tell me you want to score a point, and are desperately clutching at straws to win the debate.
even when others gave you a chance to rethink your stance and understanding(page 3), you began to come on even stronger. please don't.

i pray you take this well. you are my sis. you are a lover of the ahlul bayt(as).
not as strong as the ones' who do the laan though, for in their laan they expel all the taghouts out of their heart to make it more spacious for the love of the ahlul bayt(as)

I am not "influenced" by secularist Shia. I don't even know of any secularist Shia so that just goes to show that you have no idea what you are talking about!

You also suggested that I may be from India or Pakistan because my view differ from the fundementalist one like yours! Again, you were wrong! I am from neitherPakistan or India!



I do not respect Sunni leaders in history that had oppressed Ahlalbait(a) nor do I promote them by not cursing. My choice not to curse 100 times is based on logic. But it will only be logical to others if they are mature enough to grasp the meaning.


The arguments have been made very simple to you, but still you act as though you have not been challenged in any way.  I think there is something wrong with your sense of reasoning!

Edited by Zara28, 06 August 2007 - 07:16 PM.

[layman]

SpIzo, on Aug 6 2007, 01:16 PM, said:

Neither did we discuss with the intention of winning, but it was to understand her point of view. And when the sister did come forth with her point, we tried to first reason it out and point out the flaws in her thinking.

But unfortunately, personal opinions are the order of the day.

Anyway, I still apologise if in case, I've hurt or offended her feelings. It wasn't my intention.

It is noble to have differences in approach. Our job is to reason out what we experienced in life. But when others have different opinions, we may want to understand them first.

Personal opinions or personal experiences?

Some people have good personal experiences...we should hear their voices.  Let put the judgement aside. Experiences are higher in value than opinions.

So let hear people experiences...

Layman

[haideriam]

Zara28, on Aug 7 2007, 01:11 AM, said:

I am not "influenced" by secularist Shia. I don't even know of any secularist Shia so that just goes to show that you have no idea what you are talking about!

You also suggested that I may be from India or Pakistan because my view differ from the fundementalist one like yours! Again, you were wrong! I am from neitherPakistan or India!
I do not respect Sunni leaders in history that had oppressed Ahlalbait(a) nor do I promote them by not cursing. My choice not to curse 100 times is based on logic. But it will only be logical to others if they are mature enough to grasp the meaning.
The arguments have been made very simple to you, but still you act as though you have not been challenged in any way.  I think there is something wrong with your sense of reasoning!

sis zara
salam and ya ali madad
take this positively
1. a human being is not a pig but at times we call him such to let him know where he stands in terms  
    of his 'whole' as at that point in time.
2. also if you have not met any secularist shias then you do not have the breadth of experience to be able to make a full and proper comment on this point. sis you could be a secularist without knowing you are one, afterall you have not met any as you say and don't know what one looks like and more importantly his thoughts and logical reasoning.
3. love to be a proper fundamentalist but not a bigot though. looks like you are confusing a
   fundamentalist with an extremist(bigot).
4. not cursing is promotion for the reasons in the link PG13.
5. logic changes over time - maturity, understanding and knowledge.
    do not and i repeat do not impose your own logic over the prescribed.
    tailor your logic to the authentic prescription.
your bro in the love of the ahlul bayt(as)

ps. i will delete this post after you have read it for it seems like we are digressing.
i will let others be the judge of this. through pm

Edited by haideriam, 07 August 2007 - 06:31 AM.

[SpIzo]

Zara28, on Aug 7 2007, 05:03 AM, said:

And neither should you! It is my choice not to and I have full right to express that view and will carrying on doing so.

LOL. I knew you would respond in that manner. See, how you feel when you use the word 'should'. It is an authoritative auxiliary verb, a sort of a stricter form of 'can't'.

Yes, you have every right to express your view [bro layman- she herself said it!] but this is a public forum, where people have every right to criticise it.