249 replies to this topic

[alimohamad40]

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

There’s a lot of reference made to the jealousy of women being kufr, and so used as a way of shutting down those women who will object to being in a polygamous marriage.  While it is true that there are narrations of such a sort, they can be understood in the context of actual denial of God’s laws and trying to change them to suit one’s feelings or in committing some evil as a consequence of it.  Simply having a preference not to be in such a situation, as well as having the very human reaction of feeling jealousy for one’s spouse shouldn’t always be pinned down to the women being some wicked heathen out to destroy Islam..  So, in reference to the ahadith, one should like in a lot of these things try to find some balance in what they say.  A good example for the jealousy issue would to cite this hadith on the topic:

[ 25296 ] 5 ـ وعن أبي علي الاشعري ، عن محمد بن عبد الجبار ، عن صفوان ، عن اسحاق بن عمار قال : قلت لابي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : المرأة تغار على الرجل تؤذيه قال : ذاك من الحب .

none sense
imam Ale says the jealousy of the female is  kufr how do you want to explain that away???  do you know anything worse than KUFR ?   how do oyu jsutify kufr?
in which religion is KUFR justified ?

what balance do you want to find ??  if you accept the hadeeth that says its kufr then you need to oppose it
if oyu reject the hadeeth then thats another topic


as for the hadeeth that you mentioned about jelaousy being from love we know this,,,,  this hadeeth is not jsutifying jealousy ,,,, its telling you the reason.....   its the love of posession,,,,  when the wife loves to posess you she is jealous .....

love of posession comes from the love of the self

love of the self and love of posession is the same thing which pushes the thief to steal so can we also have a balanced approach towards theft because its a natural desire to love the self and love the posession???  

a thief's love for posession makes him try to aquire the posessions of others .....

natural desires need to be regulated by gods laws and crimes done due to the humans natural desire are not justified simply because its a natural human desire ....

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

5 – And from Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from Ishaq b. `Ammar. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah (عليه السلام): The woman is jealous for the man, annoying him.  He said: That is from love.

Should the woman be annoying her husband with her jealousy?  No, but is it that she’s just some evil women whose nearly a kafir?  Of course not, the Imam simply explains it’s normal reaction to the fact of her loving him.

she is not nearly a kafir she is kafir full stop
a kafir is oen who commits the kufr , offcourse there are levels of kufr but imam Ali says the jealousy of the female is KUFR

he didnt say "nearely kufr" he said " kufr"

do you dismiss that hadeeth because it doesnt suit you ?
otherwise how can you say some one who commits kufr is not kafir ???
some one who commits theft is not a thief ?
some one who commits forincation is not a fornicator?
some one who lies is not a liar?

and not just because the motive of her jealousy is the love it means its a good thing ..... not every love is a good thing,,,  some people loved imam Ail to a level that they turned him into a god is that a good thing ?

her love for her posession (her husband)  is a selfish love...  like you love your car and you dont want anyone to touch it ....   its the love of the material,,,,  jealousy is posessiveness which is the love of the posession which stems from the love of the self which is  selfishness  

to posess a man is a bad thing because he is allowed three other wives and hence it would run in conflict with what god allowed ...

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Now, as to the hadiths recommending the performance of mut`a, yes, the hadiths clearly recommend it and encourage its practice, so no one can deny that.  But why do they encourage it so much?  The answer to that might be seen in hadiths like this one:

[ 26398 ] 11 ـ وبالاسناد عن ابن عيسى ، عن ابن الحجاج ، عن العلا ، عن محمد بن مسلم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال لي : تمتعت ؟ قلت : لا ، قال : لا تخرج من الدنيا حتى تحيي السنة .

11 – And by the isnad from Ibn `Isa from Ibn al-Hajjaj from al-`Ala from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: He said to me: Have you done mut`a?  I said: No.  He said: Do not leave the world until you have revived the Sunna.

See that part about reviving the Sunna?  Now look at this hadith:

[ 26396 ] 9 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن علي بن الحكم ، عن بشر بن حمزة ، عن رجل من قريش قال : بعثت إلى ابنة عم لي كان لها مال كثير : قد عرفت كثرة من يخطبني من الرجال فلم أزوجهم نفسي ، وما بعثت اليك رغبة في الرجال غير أنه بلغني أنه أحلها الله في كتابه وسنها رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) في سنته فحرمها زفر ، فأحببت أن أطيع الله عز وجل فوق عرشه وأطيع رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وأعصي زفر فتزوجني متعة ، فقلت لها : حتى أدخل على أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) فأستشيره ، قال : فدخلت عليه فخبرته ، فقال : افعل صلى الله عليكما من زوج .

9 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from Bishr [Bashir – in al-Kafi] b. Hamza from a man of Quraysh.  He said: The daughter of an aunt of mine who has a lot of property sent to me:  I had known that many men had sought my hand and I have not married myself to them and I have not sent to you desiring men except that it has reached me that Allah has made mut`a halal in His book and the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله سلم legislated [stated – in al-Kafi] it in his Sunna, then Zufar made it haram, so I love that I should obey Allah عز وجل  above His Throne and obey the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and disobey Zufar.  So marry me (in) mut`a.  So I said to her: (Wait) until I enter upon Abu Ja`far عليه السلام and take his counsel.  So I entered and sought his counsel.  So he said: Do it, Allah bless you (two) from a spouse (?).

There it’s explicitly being done as a way of re-emphasizing its legitimacy in against those who said it was haram.

so if its not done for reviving the sunnah what is its law?  haraam? makrooh ?

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

But what about without that motivation in mind?  Should one still be obsessed over getting as many mut`a as you can to fill your near infinite sexual needs?

[ 26423 ] 4 ـ وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن سهل بن زياد ، عن محمد بن الحسن بن شمون قال : كتب أبو الحسن ( عليه السلام ) إلى بعض مواليه لا تلحوا على المتعة انما عليكم إقامة السنة فلا تشغلوا بها عن فرشكم وحرائركم فيكفرن ويتبرين ويدعين على الآمر بذلك ويلعنونا .


4 – And from a number of our companions from Sahl b. Ziyad from Muhammad b. al-Hasan b. Shammun.  He said: Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام wrote to some of his supporters: Do not insist on mut`a, only the establishment of the Sunna is upon you.  So do not preoccupy (yourself) with it from your beds and free (women), then they would do kufr and bara’at and call upon the authorities to you by that, and they would curse us.

!!!! I am in total harmouny with these hadeeths which say do not obsess with muta and do excess,,,  
Am have always advised against excessiveness and israaf and mentioned many times that the prophet hates the sampling men and women and that a man ideally should  convert the muta wife to permanant so i dont know why you accuse me of promoting excessiveness ???

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Now what about having mut`a with a loose women or even a prostitute, something else that gets brought up here with long lists of fatawa to somehow prove the point.  Thing is there’s a clear difference between saying something is a legitimate marriage (i.e. it’s not fornication and so no punishment for it) and then actually encouraging one to engage in it..  In the case of going with such a woman, one can fiqhi see the argument that the haram does not make the halal haram, so the woman’s haram lifestyle doesn’t in itself make the halal route (marriage) forbidden.  But should you do it?

[ 26436 ] 4 ـ وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن محمد بن عيسى ، عن يونس ، عن محمد بن الفضيل قال : سألت أبا الحسن ( عليه السلام ) عن المرأة الحسناء الفاجرة ، هل تحب للرجل أن يتمتع منها يوما أو أكثر ؟ فقال : إذا كانت مشهورة بالزنا فلا يتمتع منها ولا ينكحها .


4 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from Muhammad b. al-Fudayl.  He said: I asked Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام about the beautiful dissolute woman, is it beloved [is it permissible – in al-Kafi] for the man to do mut`a with her for a day or more?  So he said: If she is famous with fornication, then do not do mut`a with her and do not marry her.


[ 26434 ] 2 ـ وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن عبدالله بن أبي يعفور ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ، قال : سألته عن المرأة ولا يدري ما حالها ، أيتزوجها الرجل متعة ؟ قال : يتعرض لها ، فإن أجابته إلى الفجور فلا يفعل .


2 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from `Abdullah b. Ya`fur from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: I asked him about the woman whose state is not known, does the man marry her in mut`a?  He said: Present (it) to her, and if she responds to him with promiscuity then do not do it.


[ 26435 ] 3 ـ وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن أحمد بن محمد البرقي ، عن داود بن إسحاق الحذاء ، عن محمد بن الفيض قال : سألت أبا عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) عن المتعة ؟ قال : نعم ، إذا كانت عارفة ـ إلى أن قال : ـ واياكم والكواشف والدواعي والبغايا وذوات الازواج ، قلت : ما الكواشف ؟ قال : اللواتي يكاشفهن وبيوتهن معلومة ويؤتين ، قلت : فالدواعي ؟ قال : اللواتي يدعون إلى أنفسهن وقد عرفن بالفساد ، قلت : فالبغايا ؟ قال : المعروفات بالزنا ، قلت : فذوات الازواج ؟ قال : المطلقات على غير السنة .


3 – And from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad al-Barqi from Dawud b. Ishaq the shoemaker from Muhammad b. al-Fayd.  He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about mut`a.  He said: Yes, when she is `arifa – until he said: And beware of the uncoverers and the inviters and the wh.ores and the ones with husbands.  I said: What are the uncoverers?  He said: Those who are uncovered and their houses are known and come to.  I said: So the inviters?  He said: Those who invite to themselves and are known with corruption.  I said: So the who.res?  He said: The ones who are known with fornication.  He said: So the ones with husbands?  He said: The divorced upon other than the Sunna.

these hadeeths and hadeeths contradicting them have been examined by the scholars....  if you are a mujtahid you can give your opeion otherwise i gave you the openion of the scholars regarding this issue and its the permissibility  with karahyah

some say its prohibited as a precaution and some say its allowed as an absolute fatwa and therefore the buttom line is that its permissible with karahyah


I didnt give my own openion but i gave the openion of many scholars about this topic and you seem to contradict that so how did you come to that conclusion ???

did you do ijtihad and come up with a fatwa that says the absolute prohibition?  or is your prohibition precautionary?  how come not one scholar that I know of has given an absolute prohibition ?   if your fatwa is precautionary it means your not sure so why do you expect people to folow you?

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Now, in the encouragement of mut`a being to revive the Sunna, would anyone in their right mind say that going with prostitutes is something from the Sunna?!  

who is this imaginary person who said a makrooh action is a sunnah???   i know you are refering to me but i challenge you to show me where i said that its a sunnah???
I said its a good solution for forincators and masturbators and pornography addicts which is propably 90% of us  because its a makrooh and a makrooh that can take you out of haraam becomes obligatory on you.  

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

And make no mistake about it too, prostitution is something clearly that is haram in Islam, with a punishment associated with even “just” arranging it (i.e. pimping):

are you for real? i didnt know that

pimping is arranging forincation   , if you arrange a muta with a prostitute you are not a pimp ..  dont mix the issues

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

[ 34483 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن سليمان ، عن عبدالله بن سنان ، قال : قلت لأبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : أخبرني عن القواد ما حده ؟ قال : لا حد على القواد ، أليس إنما يعطى الأجر على أن يقود ؟ ! قلت : جعلت فداك ، إنما يجمع بين الذكر والانثى حراما ، قال : ذاك المؤلف بين الذكر والانثى حراما ، فقلت : هو ذاك ، قال : يضرب ثلاثة أرباع حد الزاني خمسة وسبعين سوطا ، وينفى من المصر الذي هو فيه . . الحديث .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father [from Salih b. as-Sindi – additional in al-Faqih] from Muhammad b. Sulayman from `Abdullah b. Sinan.  He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Inform me about the procurer (al-qawwad, used for pimp but also means a procurer), what is his hadd?  He said: There is no hadd upon the procurer.  Is it not that he is only given the wage for what he procures?  I said: May I be made your ransom! However, he brings together the male and the female in a haram manner.  He said: That is the combiner (al-mu’allif) between the male and the female in a haram manner.  So I said: He is that.  He said: He is struck with three fourths of the hadd of the fornicator, seventy-five lashings, and he is exiled from the city which he is in (- to the rest of the hadith)


[ 34484 ] 2 ـ قال : وفي خبر آخر : لعن رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) الواصلة والمؤتصلة ـ يعني : الزانية والقوادة في هذا الخبر ـ .

2 – He said: And in another narration: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله cursed the connector (al-waasila, fem.) and the connected (al-mu’tasila, fem.) – meaning the fornicatress (i.e. prostitute) and the madam in this report.

yes this is right , whoever arranges forincation is a pimp

but muta is not forincation and hence arranging that is not pimping

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Now what about engaging in mut`a when you already have a wife?  Now that could be argued either way.  Generally it would be considered permissible, though the above recommendation either seem not to apply or at least not be so strong, for example:

[ 26421 ] 2 ـ وعنه ، عن المختار بن محمد بن المختار ، وعن محمد بن الحسن ، عن عبدالله بن الحسن العلوي جميعا ، عن الفتح بن يزيد قال : سألت أبا الحسن ( عليه السلام ) عن المتعة ؟ فقال : هي حلال مباح مطلق لمن لم يغنه الله بالتزويج فليستعفف بالمتعة ، فإن استغنى عنها بالتزويج فهي مباح له إذا غاب عنها .


2 – And from him from al-Mukhtar b. Muhammad b. al-Mukhtar and from Muhammad b. al-Hasan from `Abdullah b. al-Hasan al-`Alawi all from al-Fath b. Yazid.  He said: I asked Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام about mut`a.  So he said: It is absolutely halal (and) permissible for the one whom Allah has not made him free of need by marriage so he seeks chastity by mut`a.  So he is without need of it by marriage, then it is permissible for him if he is absent from her.


See the conditionality of availability of the wife above?  So it’s not necessarily just cut and dry, it’s the man’s right and that’s that as some might think it is.

if this hadeeth is true its saying that its permissible for the one who was sufficed by permamant marriage from it if he goes away

its not saying anything about the prohibition or karahyah if you already had a wife

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

And what about engaging in mut`a with non-Muslim women (which is generally what we’d be talking about here in these societies).  Well, if you have a Muslim wife already, you really should think twice about it:

[ 26471 ] 7 ـ محمّد بن عليّ بن الحسين بإسناده عن سعدان ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا تزوجوا اليهودية ولا النصرانية على حرة متعة وغير متعة .


7 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from Sa`dan from Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: Do not marry the Jewish woman nor the Christian woman upon a free woman in mut`a or in other than mut`a.

And then this one about marrying a dhimmi upon (i.e. while you are already married to) a Muslima:

[ 26303 ] 4 ـ محمد بن علي بن الحسين بإسناده عن الحسن بن محبوب ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) في رجل تزوج ذمية على مسلمة قال : يفرق بينهما ويضرب ثمن حد الزاني اثني عشر سوطا ونصفا ، فان رضيت المسلمة ضرب ثمن الحد ولم يفرق بينهما ، قلت : كيف يضرب النصف ؟ قال : يؤخذ السوط بالنصف فيضرب به .

4 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding a man who married a dhimmi woman upon a Muslim woman.  He said: They are separated and he is struck an eighth of the hadd of the fornicator, twelve and a half lashes.  So if the Muslim woman accepts (or, is content) he is struck an eighth of the hadd and they are not separated.  I said: How is he struck the half?  He said: The lash is taken by the middle (or, the half) and he is struck with it.

this stuff is doubtful because its in direct contradiction of verse 5:5

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Even if you don't have a Muslim wife yet, still going with such non-Muslim women should be something to think twice about considering the many reports that speak against it, which if folks are interested I could go more into in sha Allah, but I think this post is already long enough.

the quraan 5:5  says  against what you say

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

So we see that just with a little bit of looking at the sources, a lot of this stuff can easily be responded to (and minus the need for emotional character assassinations).   Key is balance, something I find blatantly missing from most of these discussions on both sides of the argument.

balance doesnt mean hypocrisy ,,,  one needs to have a stance from things and be honnest about what they belive regardless of the results and concern for thier own popularity

salaam

[alimohamad40]

Salaam

Brother Qaim and others:

I read over everything again in the train to make sure I didnt make mistakes and I found out that I made a mistake and I would like to correct it because it doesnt allow me to edit :

i quoted Alkhoie wrongly and said :

abulqasim alkhoie also said: "that the encouragement is not only when one has a need for the marriage "

the correct words are here in red:  

Abul Qasim Al Khooie:
Fatwa number 3633: (strongly) there is no difference in the recommendation of marriage between some one who desired it or some one who didnt desire it due to the general nature of the narrations. and because the benefit of it is not limited only to satisfying the desire but it has its benefits including the increase in the generations and the people who say la ilaha illa Allah as its reported from imam baqir that the prophet said: "what stops a faithful from getting a family so that god would give him a breath that will fill the earth with la illaha illa Allah?" ( my translating of the hadeeth is not very accurate)

Fatwa number 3634: The Recommendation doesn't stop at the first marriage but polygamy is also Mustahab , god said " marry what is desirable for you 2, three and four" alnisaa, 3, and whats apparent from the evidence is that the recommendation is not confined in the permanent and the temporary marriage only but extends even further to include the marriage to the right hand Possessions as well (mulk alyameen).

Fatwa number 3635: The recommendation is within the act itself regardless of whether the one who does it intends to get closer to Allah by that action or no. Yes in order for it to be a worship and rewarding the intention of getting closer to Allah is compulsory

Reference: Picture 2
Compilations of Al-Khooie's son of his fathers lectures
http://www.alkhoei.n...U32/001-020.htm

Attached Thumbnails

• 

Edited by alimohamad40, 28 May 2012 - 04:38 AM.

[alimohamad40]

Also read a fatwa from sayeed al hakims website

he permits both permenant and temporary marriage to ahlulkitab



Q [24] Is it possible to have a permanent marriage with a follower of the Christian Faith, or only temporary?   

   It is permissible to marry a Christian wife temporarily and permanently. Marrying her permanently is invalid without the permission of the Muslim wife if he is married to one.   
  

Q [25] A Muslim couple got separated for a long time. Is it permissible for him to marry, temporarily or permanently, a woman from Ahlul Kitab without the knowledge of his Muslim wife?
  Is it permissible for him to marry, with the permission of his Muslim wife?  

   It is permissible to permanently marry a woman from the people of the book with the consent of the muslin wife and not without it.

If the marriage is temporarily then the consent of the Muslim wife is not required.


http://english.alhak...page=3&Where=62

Edited by alimohamad40, 29 May 2012 - 04:53 AM.

[133ali]

It all depends on your own personal likes and dislikes, You meet somebody, you establish a rapport, the vibes are strong, a chemistry works, then you slowly or suddenly feel he/she is the one for you. When you feel that way, then the past really does not matter much, unless it is of a serious nature; but then out of fairness, you would not like anybody to be saddled with a man or woman who has committed a serious crime, and does not care of the consequences.

[Noah107]

yes Id definitely marry a girl with past.
Because who on earth wants to marry a virgin!   men listen up because this is true, other than the feeling of conquering men get with a virgin, marrying a virgin or being with a virgin is not much fun!   Infact it's awkward.  Back when I was a non muslim I never liked virgins because it took them forever to be comfortable with the physical side.   having a little experience is a good thing for women but obviously too much of a past is not good.
to be honest a man with a past is good too but too much of a past and he may aswell be a germ infested, wild eyed, dog on heat, on steriods, dry humping the postman.   Now NO women wants a man who has so much of a past that clearly he has a bad habit of lots of lovers.
we must not have double standards RE 'pasts'.  Alot of u men will have have many women lying to you in the future about their pasts. ull have marriages based on lies because ur wives cant trust u to love them unconditionally.

[ShahBano_BZ]

Noah107, on 29 May 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Because who on earth wants to marry a virgin!   men listen up because this is true, other than the feeling of conquering men get with a virgin, marrying a virgin or being with a virgin is not much fun!   Infact it's awkward.  

That's not very gallant,

Edited by ShahBano_BZ, 29 May 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[Marbles]

This thread without a doubt is a laughing stock.

Edited by Marbles, 29 May 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Noah107, on 29 May 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

yes Id definitely marry a girl with past.
Because who on earth wants to marry a virgin!   men listen up because this is true, other than the feeling of conquering men get with a virgin, marrying a virgin or being with a virgin is not much fun!   Infact it's awkward.  Back when I was a non muslim I never liked virgins because it took them forever to be comfortable with the physical side.   having a little experience is a good thing for women but obviously too much of a past is not good.

Muhammad b. Ya`qub from a number of our companions from Sahl b. Ziyad and Ahmad b. Muhammad all from Ibn Mahbub from `Ali b. Ri’ab from `Abd al-A`la b. A`yan client of the Aal Sam from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Marry the virgins for verily they are the sweetest thing of the mouths.
http://www.tashayyu....ries/chapter-17

[ShahBano_BZ]

ShahBano_BZ, on 29 May 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

That's not very gallant,

but it also explains a lot, to me at least.---I think we should go and hide under a stone,

Marbles, on 29 May 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

This thread without a doubt is a laughing stock.

Com'mon, a bit of smile and little laughter, we all need it,

enjoy

[Marbles]

ShahBano_BZ, on 29 May 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Com'mon, a bit of smile and little laughter, we all need it,

enjoy

Yeah, that's what I called it: a laughing stock. So that's a lot of laughter

[786 fordost]

As a woman I rather have a man who is a virgin. I have observed men who are not virgins and married halal "most" of the time several times I have no problem with them because of their past but I do find that their past experience make them hard to deal with and many of them seem more critical of women than the men who are virgins. Men who are virgins with no past seem to ask for qualities in a woman that they can be compatible with. Men who are not virgins with a past who do temporary marriage with different and always talking about how they will never commit to those women because they are not good enough but yet wants to do permanent marriage with a innocent virgin, beautiful, no past, smart , obeys him always etc. Excuse me men but it annoys me.
There are lots of good divorced women out there who married the wrong man who beat on her or had a drug dependency and men who have had sex with several of women some times halal and sometimes pretend halal( like mutah with someone else' wife) have the guts to not stay with any of those women (because they think they are better than them) but expects some hure paradise woman to be patiently waiting for them to want to settle down and reject divorce woman.

That is why I married a innocent virgin man who is down to earth in his expectations.
It is easy to exceed some one's expectations when they are not too high lol.
I always liked virgin men over non-virgin men and I come from a western society.
I have talked to some non-muslims girls and even some of them rather have a virgin man over one with experience.
It is becoming a realized fact that just because a man has experience does not mean he will have the right kind of experience that will satisfy any one
especially a woman who come any where near to being descent.

A man who can get women when ever he wants usually looses respect for them.

[alimohamad40]

^^^
salam

how old would  would that virgin male be?
your idea can only stay islamic if you marry a man who is 13 year old  and virgin....  but am sure you are talking about much older than that right ?

If he hass passed puberty by many years then your idea will be a discourgement of marriage because he needed to refrain from marriage to stay "virgin" as you say...  

If he is at the age of 20 or 30 and never married or tried to marry then its a disaster and you are digging your own grave with such anti islamic spouse selection criteria
You would be filtering out all the clean ones who actuallly stayed clean through marriage or at least tried to stay clean by trying to marry and you will choose some one who is one of below:

1) liar who actually got married but lies to get into your white pages
2) a sinner who does not need marriage and does not need to stay clean so he fornicated, or did whatever curruption
3) un-helathy  person who is low on desire  and has a serious health issue


you will not get A prophet like person who would have a healthy and strong desire yet highly diciplined and can control it in the absense of marriage  because these sorts of people will get maried early and will not go against the encouragement of good for marriage in order to keep themselves "virgin"
Allah encourages marriage so they will go for it and " the best of the good deeds is the one that is done faster "
خير الامور عاجلها
as the prophet said


Now what does "virgin" mean?  

virgin in language means pure

in christian ideology sex is evil so any person who married is not pure thats why the priests has to stay unmarried (and very likley turn homosexual)

so in accordance with this ideology the least pure of people are the prophets and imams because they had many wives in thier life.

According to islam the virgin is the one who went and married not the one who prohibited the lawful on himself like the catholic priests.

So if you want a true virgin its the one who married or tried to marry (mustahab action) not the "virgin" one who stayed away from marriage ( makrooh action)  ....

the prophet said:
Marriage is my lifestyle , whoever refrains from my lifetsyle is not from me

and he says :
`Ali b. al-Husayn al-Murtada in the treatise Al-Muhkam wa 'l-Mutashabih transmitting from the tafsir of an-Nu`mani by his forthcoming isnad (later inWasa'il) from `Ali عليه السلام. He said: Verily a group from the companions had forbidden upon themselves women and iftar by day and sleep by night. So Umm Salama informed the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم and he went out to his companions. So he said: Do you renounce women?! Verily I come unto women, and I eat by day, and I sleep by night. So whoso renounces my Sunna, then he is not from me. And Allah sent down “Forbid not the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, nor transgress; verily, Allah loves not the transgressors. But eat of what Allah has provided you lawfully of good things; and fear Allah, in whom you are believers.” (5:87-88) So they said: O Messenger of Allah, verily we have sworn that? So Allah sent down “Allah will not catch you up for a casual word in your oaths – up to His saying - That is the expiation of your oaths when you have sworn, and keep your oaths” (5:89)



You mentioned about men who marry in muta and never content with those women so they dump them.... if you are condemning wasters then I agree because the prophet said " god hates the sampling women and sampling men"  
those people who just sample around and waste eahothers lives and dump each other for no good reason ,,,,   like those who take a bite pof each apple and throw it !!!! and Allah says in the quraan:

the wasters are the brothers of the devil

Quote

As a woman I rather have a man who is a virgin. I have observed men who are not virgins and married halal "most" of the time several times I have no problem with them because of their past but I do find that their past experience make them hard to deal with and many of them seem more critical of women than the men who are virgins.

you have to be careful of this conclusion... what you are saying is true,,, after experince they become more critical of women because they have seen the reality.  same goes with women where after marriage they critisize men becauase they witenssed the reality.....   but when a never married person doesnt critisize it doesnt mean they will stay that way!!!  its just a sign of thier ignorance of the reality....   so you are working on the concept of ignorance is a bliss????
it shouldnt be that way ...
a good muslim will not have any gender bias and her/his critisim of the other gender and his own gender will be objective and not subjective to his own gender ,,, this is what you want  an objecitve and fair human ,  being never married before is not one of the conditions to achive such quality.

Quote

There are lots of good divorced women out there who married the wrong man who beat on her or had a drug dependency and men who have had sex with several of women some times halal and sometimes pretend halal( like mutah with someone else' wife) have the guts to not stay with any of those women (because they think they are better than them) but expects some hure paradise woman to be patiently waiting for them to want to settle down and reject divorce woman.

yes many divorcees could be good women as you said...  

but why do you equate these two categories together ?  
"have had sex with several of women some times halal and sometimes pretend halal( like mutah with someone else' wife)"

the prophets have had sex with several women
imam ali had sex wtih several women.... he had 25 wives and all had kids from him
so why do you equate them and put them in the same category as the fornicaters who fornicated with other peoples wives??

does this show your hidden hate for god's law?

Quote

That is why I married a innocent virgin man who is down to earth in his expectations.
It is easy to exceed some one's expectations when they are not too high lol.
I always liked virgin men over non-virgin men and I come from a western society.
I have talked to some non-muslims girls and even some of them rather have a virgin man over one with experience.
It is becoming a realized fact that just because a man has experience does not mean he will have the right kind of experience that will satisfy any one

it depends on the age and the health but the islamic difinition of virgin for a man is one who stays out of haraam not one who stays out of marriage.

maybe in the catholic church its different but in islam a true virgin is the one who married because the prophet says:

the prayer of a married person is valued 45 times more than the prayer of unmarried


« إنّ أراذل موتاكم العزاب »
the worst amongst your dead ones are the never married ones
mustadrak al wasael


« شرار موتاكم العزاب »
the most evil amongst your dead are the never married
jami3 almaqasid

imam sadiq is reported in man la yahdharoho alfaqeeh  

من ترك التزويج مخافة الفقر ، فقد أساء الظنّ بالله عزَّ وجلَّ
whoever left marriage afraid of poverty has made a bad suspecion of god's generosity  


Generallly being unmarried on purpose is makrooh in islam so why do you prefer what Allah made makrooh? (discouraged)

how do you explain when a man in his 30s or 20s says " I didnt try to get married so i can say am virgin"   , so is he bosting about doing the makrooh?

Quote

A man who can get women when ever he wants usually looses respect for them.

I also disagree here ...  this quality has to do with the nature of the person not how much mercy god has bestowed on him...  

If he is grateful he will appriciate even if he can get it easily...
If he is ungreateful he will not appriciate wether he gets them easily or with difficulty ..

Edited by alimohamad40, 01 June 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[Qa'im]

Quote

1) liar who actually got married but lies to get into your white pages
2) a sinner who does not need marriage and does not need to stay clean so he fornicated, or did whatever curruption
3) un-helathy person who is low on desire and has a serious health issue

So, which of these three are you accusing me of? I am not 13, so I must be one of the three by your logic. Right? I am not against early marriage or mut`a, they are lawful and good. But there are many men who, for whatever reasons, are in their 20s and have not gotten married. That does not mean we're all liars, sinners, or lunatics.

Edited by Qa'im, 01 June 2012 - 08:01 PM.

[alimohamad40]

Qa, on 01 June 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

So, which of these three are you accusing me of? I am not 13, so I must be one of the three by your logic. Right? I am not against early marriage or mut`a, they are lawful and good. But there are many men who, for whatever reasons, are in their 20s and have not gotten married. That does not mean we're all liars, sinners, or lunatics.

okay i will explain inshallah
I mentioned three categories:
1) liar who actually got married but lies to get into your white pages
2) a sinner who does not need marriage and does not need to stay clean so he fornicated, or did whatever curruption
3) un-helathy person who is low on desire and has a serious health issue

and dont forget I mentioned a 4th category which is the highly disciplined people like the prophets but those people would not refrain from marriage intentionally unless the conditions of life had forced them to remain single (e.g. due to unavailiability of suitable women, being in jail etc. )

so the negative ones are just categories 1 and 2

category three is a medical condition
category 4 is a good thing ( only for those who can not find marriage not those who intentionally leave marriage )

as the prophet said:
Do you renounce women?! Verily I come unto women, and I eat by day, and I sleep by night. So whoso renounces my Sunna, then he is not from me. And Allah sent down “Forbid not the good things which Allah has made lawful for you

also

« شرار موتاكم العزاب »
the most evil amongst your dead are the never married


And which good person would purposely abandon being married making his prayer worth 45 times less than if he was married ?  ( just to be "virgin")

Which good person would choose the lifestyle of those whom "their dead are the worst amongst us" for no good reason ?  


so the accusation is not directed at the one who tried to get married but failed for ligitimate reasons but rather the one who imposed celibacy upon himself and purposely refrained from marriage.

I dont know whats your position so i dont accuse you of anything  and I positively assume that you are in category 4 where the conditions are not allowing you. or maybe in category 3.  

The next best thing is to be category 3 but I dont wish that for anyone either .

The 3rd category is not an accusation but its a medical condition which should not be looked down at....

however If you purposly refrain from marriage then its not me who accuses you but the prophet who says that you are not from him.

please explain what you think...
thank you

salaam

[786 fordost]

alimohamad40 lol you are really brainstorming how a man can be a virgin and be good lol.
I do not expect a man to be 30, 40 or 50 and be a virgin. Infact being a virgin by not having sex is not the most important part of virginity to me.
Virginity to me is about desire to be pure. Some men not all men think purity with sex is only for women.
I am not against a man getting married at a young age . Or doing Halal relationship in respectful way. I do respect all brothers who do halal forms of marriage.
I just have my own personal preferance. Just like I am sure many people including yourself have certain thing you prefer in a partner or partners.
Since I am a woman I can have only one husband at a time so I do have preferance and I go with that. If I was a man who can marry several women I do not think I would be too picky all the time because I could have a little of everything lol.
And Please I do not like it when anyone compares themselves to Imam Ali (A.S) and the prophet. The reality is nobody will ever be like them that is why they were so special. If you know any men like them I am sure alot of sisters would like to hear about it.
Also brother you have to remember not ever man will get married at 13 or 18 that does not make him (un manly). Some men spend their time  seeking Allah, helping their community and learning vast amounts of knowledge then marry. Also The Prophet Mohammad did not get married until he was 25 since you want to use him as an example do you think any one who waits until they are over 20 is unmanly? So If a 21 year old man get married  does that mean he can no longier be muslim for going one year extra with out sex? lol

excuse me I mean't to say The prophet Mohammad ( Allah huma salee Allah muhamad wa ali mohamad) istagfirulla

[Sapphire]

786 fordost, on 02 June 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

alimohamad40 lol you are really brainstorming how a man can be a virgin and be good lol.
I do not expect a man to be 30, 40 or 50 and be a virgin. Infact being a virgin by not having sex is not the most important part of virginity to me.
Virginity to me is about desire to be pure. Some men not all men think purity with sex is only for women.
I am not against a man getting married at a young age . Or doing Halal relationship in respectful way. I do respect all brothers who do halal forms of marriage.
I just have my own personal preferance. Just like I am sure many people including yourself have certain thing you prefer in a partner or partners.
Since I am a woman I can have only one husband at a time so I do have preferance and I go with that. If I was a man who can marry several women I do not think I would be too picky all the time because I could have a little of everything lol.
And Please I do not like it when anyone compares themselves to Imam Ali (A.S) and the prophet. The reality is nobody will ever be like them that is why they were so special. If you know any men like them I am sure alot of sisters would like to hear about it.
Also brother you have to remember not ever man will get married at 13 or 18 that does not make him (un manly). Some men spend their time  seeking Allah, helping their community and learning vast amounts of knowledge then marry. Also The Prophet Mohammad did not get married until he was 25 since you want to use him as an example do you think any one who waits until they are over 20 is unmanly? So If a 21 year old man get married  does that mean he can no longier be muslim for going one year extra with out sex? lol

excuse me I mean't to say The prophet Mohammad ( Allah huma salee Allah muhamad wa ali mohamad) istagfirulla

Dear Sister,

I am in total agreement with you. No man in our society can be like Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W) & Imam Ali(A.S). They were great Men who treated everyone with equality and followed Allah(SWT) orders with full commitment. Nowadays as we have left the righteous path, we are confused as to what we want in life.

[Batool M. Rizvi]

Qa, on 01 June 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

So, which of these three are you accusing me of? I am not 13, so I must be one of the three by your logic. Right? I am not against early marriage or mut`a, they are lawful and good. But there are many men who, for whatever reasons, are in their 20s and have not gotten married. That does not mean we're all liars, sinners, or lunatics.

i am in complete agreement to brother Qa'im.... m marrying a person of age 23 years n he's perfectly not amongst the three... and to the category list of ALIMOHAMAD40 i would like to add a fifith one... FOLLOWERS of the prophet... trying to keep themselves away from sins... there are three paths... one extreme good, 2nd extreme evil, and third a balance.... there is something known as self control...

Noah107, on 29 May 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

yes Id definitely marry a girl with past.
Because who on earth wants to marry a virgin!   men listen up because this is true, other than the feeling of conquering men get with a virgin, marrying a virgin or being with a virgin is not much fun!   Infact it's awkward.  Back when I was a non muslim I never liked virgins because it took them forever to be comfortable with the physical side.   having a little experience is a good thing for women but

my fiance' is marrying me because of my viginity, innocence, character and upbringing.... is that bad....??????

[Freeurmind]

Depends how bad her past is, and obviously depends on the girl . Probably would


For men, being with different woman to an extent make you stronger
For woman, its messes with their brain and makes them weaker

Edited by Freeurmind, 29 November 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[Logical Islam]

well the prophet pbuh married 9 wives (not at the same time). That's nine women.

Why would you not want a guy who maybe had a mutah once before, when the prophet pbuh had NINE wives.

its impossible that you were the only one 'destined' for him. no such thing. we are male or female and it's just who you meet.

That said, the less of a past the better. No past is IDEAL.

i couldn't bring myself to marry a woman with kids lol. or a woman who was married before. i just couldn't.

Freeurmind, on 29 November 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Depends how bad her past is, and obviously depends on the girl . Probably would


For men, being with different woman to an extent make you stronger
For woman, its messes with their brain and makes them weaker

LOL!

Edited by Logical Islam, 29 November 2012 - 09:20 AM.

[Haydar Husayn]

Logical Islam, on 29 November 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

well the prophet pbuh married 9 wives (not at the same time). That's nine women.

Why would you not want a guy who maybe had a mutah once before, when the prophet pbuh had NINE wives.

its impossible that you were the only one 'destined' for him. no such thing. we are male or female and it's just who you meet.

That said, the less of a past the better. No past is IDEAL.

i couldn't bring myself to marry a woman with kids lol. or a woman who was married before. i just couldn't.

He was married to 9 at the same time. The total number of wives was somewhere around 13.

[Hot hot]

I wont accept any girl with a past. Now don't say I'll be a bachelor ever I know there are some clean girls too.

[Logical Islam]

Haydar Husayn, on 29 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

He was married to 9 at the same time. The total number of wives was somewhere around 13.

Oh! i must have misheared a lecture then.

he has genuine reasons (widows, ect)

aren't we only allowed 4 though lol

[Kai]

Logical Islam, on 29 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Oh! i must have misheared a lecture then.

he has genuine reasons (widows, ect)

aren't we only allowed 4 though lol

Don't forget that Prophet Muhammed also owned a number of concubines.

Edited by Kai, 29 November 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Hasan0404]

There should be no problem in such a marriage.

[Haydar Husayn]

Logical Islam, on 29 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Oh! i must have misheared a lecture then.

he has genuine reasons (widows, ect)

aren't we only allowed 4 though lol

Yes, we are only allowed four wives. There was an exemption made by Allah (swt) for the Prophet .

Edited by Haydar Husayn, 29 November 2012 - 12:32 PM.