249 replies to this topic

[Ismahan007]

Ali_Hussain, on 23 May 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

It is hypocracy because you talk about akhlaq not two minutes after calling me a "mutt". Now you say:

I think you're a sad man, I didn't say you were a mutt. it was a question you refuse to answer. stop spamming the site!

Ali_Hussain, on 23 May 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

This is exactly what you have done with the brother in question, you have accused him of all kinds of things, The latest of which is:

" It's truly a huge shame to see such a ppl in our shia community who pretend to belong to it. if I was asked by non shias abt them I wud surely deny them"

So now he's an apostate? Very nice, the sadest part of all of this is that this is how you defend your position


you state no sources, just your claim (that in you opinion) it goes against the very fitra of humans. Then claim the Imams never practiced this. Well they certainly made in permissable, and more to the point, they themselves had slave wives, quite a few of them.
then you finish off by saying:

"its better he stays with his books instead"

what is that even supposed to mean? Books are the best source of guidance we have today, I guess you don't read them because you can't stomach what is in them.

you're obviously don't understand whats been discussed here. its aint abt the 'permissibility' of mutah or whether the imams did or not rather whats this man is calling for like he did many times with other threads. our imams didn't do mutah with prostitutes and encouraged their filthy life style. they did not do it with slaves either. these r fabrications by 'scholars' to justify their actions. our imams never do such things. they dont use humans to fulfill their sexual needs then marry them off to other men to do same.

Alimo is a man who's in need of help. everybody here knows that whether they say it or not. I did not accuse him but stated a fact. if what he says comes true of him, then he has many psychological issues that r well known. its ur problem if you have reading problems, not once I ever said mutah is haram or should not be practiced. I always said the way certain ppl portrait it and use it is the ridiculous part that should not be supported. I don't need to provide ANY source c'oz he's not gonna accept them rather twist them and call ppl kafir, omar, etc as usual.

I didnt say he's an apostate, you obviously have problems with simply understanding intended meanings. I was merely stating that there're much better things to do than curling with a prostitute.

Ali_Hussain, on 23 May 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Yet more hypocracy on your part is that recently, you were defending tatbir, saying no one is allowed to make it haram, well was that ever practiced by an Imam? That argument works for you here, but not there?

so our imams practiced mutah with prostitutes right? Astagfirullah. you're argument is lame.I dont think you know the meaning of hypocrisy anyway... my posts r clear, not once in my whole life I practiced hypocrisy, its obvious that you're one of Alimo's supporter therefore, wont be surprised if u call ppl hypocrite or kafir and accuse them to be same way as omar la was... tatbir is a different issue, no one does it and claims they do it to 'revive' a 'forgotten' 'sunah' and 'improve' other ppl's lives... again stop mixing things up.

Edited by Ismahan007, 24 May 2012 - 05:31 AM.

[alimohamad40]

salaam

Unfortunately Because am working too many hours these days I cant read things properly.
I had a quick scan  and we should focus on the topics of disagreement and forget about the characters and who said what .

I advise the people of the opposing belief to do the same.... as imam ali said " truth is not marked by individuals ,,,,  "


" listen to what is being said rather than who is saying it"


the paragraph that was taken out of context and misudnerstood which i wanted to clarify is:

Quote

If i had money it will be a religious obligation and Duty on me to hire prostitutes for mut3a all the time or a better choice would probably be to just buy a woman from poor countries.

I am talking about a situation of facing potential sin due to the lack of marriage or falling into sins, which makes the muta with prostitute a lesser of two evils.

Its allowed but makrooh but the potential sins of watching nudity or other marriage related sins are actually haraam so any sane person would chose makrooh over haraam if thats thier only reaklistic choices.

You are religiously prohibited to forsake a makrooh which saves you from haraam .


When I said "all the time" I wasnt encouraging people to do the makrooh excessively but I was referring to it being a regular alterantive solution at all the times that you face such situations.  i.e.  everytime you are at risk of sommiting haraam ...
I dont agree with excessivenes in anything and thats one of the reasons i disagree with nicknames like muta king if they would give the meaning of excessiveness in muta.
I am talking about needs here and not about excess and israf (wastage).  


When I talked about a better choice being buying a girl from a poor country i am not referring to human trafficking and abuse and deciet and lies and all these false accusations....  

My point was
That ideally I wanted marriage with  wife/wives where our ideologies are in harmony and hence a good match but the situation didnt offer that ideal so the less ideal was to go for materialistic women and to me materialistic women are bought not married .  
this is my openion but i can explain it .......

A woman whom you can only win her heart by buying her an expensive diamond ring or a huge dowry, a brand bag or whatever.  are you really marrying her or buying her ???? or bribing?  you make your own choice......

I say buying because a human who only looks for materialistic things can be bought by those materials.

So I was poor and couldnt afford to buy/bribe any materialistic girl from the rich countries (as thier demands are high and i wanted to minimize the wastage) so I said buy from the poor country

My idea by the word BUY is to highlight the frustration about the lack of the ideal female match who would ideologically be in harmouny with what i belived islam is about and hence I have to resort to the less ideal situation in order to save myself from bigger sins by either indulging in makrooh or buying (the superficial materialistic marriage).
so how did this turn into a human trafficking ring i dont know???


Lebanese princes is and example of the type of people that value materalism highly and thats why she labeled herself a princess because she enjoys the egotistical
self centered feeling that boosts the ego and fills the emptiness.

Not only that but also she is suffering from another self vice related to the selfishness and self centrism which is prioritising the  nationalist identity..  

She opened a topic where she was saying different women envy her so I tried to address her problem and told her to stop boasting and showing off so they would stop envying you and harming you ,,,,   She took offense and went digging to find stuff to discredit me


I strongly belive that lebanese perinces and the group that support her have problems but they dont see the problems so I try to argue it point by point  inshallah but they take offense quickly thinking i want to harm them and not save them from harm !!!!!



regarding sister tranquility:

she had put and invented and unsilamic marriage criteria which was:

men should stay single between the age of puberty (13-15)  until they get permenant marriage at  20 or 30 or whatever because that will mean the wife will be the first and last woman in his life  !!!!  

she said it exactly like this:

Quote

"it was worth it suppressing his needs for a few years to feel heaven-like life with a first and last woman in his life". many men married at age 25 or more for the first time and are not gay

she was advocating men supress thier desires for many years (few years she says but for many people permamant marriage is only coming after decades)

That they should practice celibacy in order to satisfy her jealousy and accomodate with the victorian ideal.

I rejected the advocating of celibacy just like I reject  the celibacy of the catholic prists and the actions resultign from that.

Islam clearly prohibits celibacy and never tells you to avoid marriage for any reason let alone for the ugliest reason so that your jealuos future wife will be the only one in your life ever !!!   ( what about if another woman needed you?? what if you are afraid from potential sin?  what about promoting maroof by practising abandeoned sunnahs?  NO dont do your wajib but only satisfy your jealuos wife)

In order for your jealous wife to be the first and last one in your life you have to actually go and commit haraam acts and go to hell instead  because if you end up in heaven you will have heaps of virgin hoor al 3een as promised in the quraan which will make her furious?

what will the jelaous wife do then if you made it to heaven?  start conspiracies agianst you in heaven???  No because she wont even be there to begin with because thats not the place for the humans who challange god after they have recived the knowledge and they got certain of it. .  

so I was telling sister tranquility that by setting such anti islamic criteria for spouse selection the girl would be digging her own grave because any normal man at the age of 30 who claims that he never attempted to get married and it never bothered him and that his situation is ideal then he is one of the following,

1) a liar who has many problems but is discrete about them
2) a sinner who doesnt need marriage as he has no problem with forincation and/or other curruptions
3) an unhealthy human who has a very low desire

so why would you make such people your preference??

It was long time ago  and maybe if she comes she would have tasted the bitterness and admits the reaslity after the exposure...


there was a similar case of  a girl who was approached by a 30 years old who said " no we dont practise muta" when he was told to do muta in order to talk to her!!!!
he also claimed that he never was married before and the same nonsense lies  that foolish women like to hear

after many years things got exposed

any way
salaam for now

[alimohamad40]

Ismahan its been a while I wanted to tell you that you are one of the worst if not the worst when it comes to

arrogance
hypcorisy
compound ignorance
incompetence
and many other bad traits

You have to work to eradicate these problems otherwise they will grow and get dangerous and destroy your life...

I dont even want to go into discussing your ideology and your countless contradictions but one example i want to give you which might make you think:


On one side you support yaser alhabeeb and on another side you support western femenism ???  how on earth can you combine those two ?


yaser alhabeeb was saying " umar is gay thats why he opposed muta because he loved sodomy"  

so do you agree with yaser on this or umar??

[~Zee Zee~]

I am very shocked at your response and very disgusted. Your assumptions about me are quite  wrong. Instead of addressing the matter, you are now picking at my user name. Really? Many other girls have user names with Princess in them and of course you have the Mutah_King who's obviously picked that name as a joke.  And there are many people who have the name of their country in their username.But that doesn't mean we are egotistical. It's simply a user name. Your attacks are cheap just like your statements about women. The way of your thinking is very childish. And once again your abusive and accusing nature, and your arrogance has risen. I don't know whether to feel ashamed for you or sorry. The only reason why you think I "dug" up this thread to get revenge, is because that is exactly  something you would do to others.. You are making assumptions of others based on your jaded reflection.  I  do recall making a thread about hasad, because I was asking about auras in Islam, and if they had something to do with hasad. You are the one that brought this topic up  now, and you have exposed yourself  even more, as I did not even recall your comment. But since you brought it up , you must be feeling guilt or something. Here is the topic and your quote is below :  http://www.shiachat....uras-real/

[alimohamad40]

^^
irrelavant
I took  a guess at why you have dug up an old thread and I might have got it wrong but what has that got to do with the statements I made about your problems ?
your choice of nicknames reflects your ideology no?

even your slogan is implying that your allways right !!!!! what makes you think you are allways right and is arrogance and self praise a good thing ?

its a joke ? yes we know but only specific people joke this way...

answer the topics of discussion,,  It doesnt surbrize me that your posts are empty of content...

we have a few clear issues at hand

1) promoting celibacy for males between puberty and 20 or 30
2) permissibility of muta with prostitute
3) slave human trafficking and so on
4) anti islamic spouse selection criteria
5) excessiveness
6) prioritizing national identity
7) ego centrism and supremacy superiosirty complexes

please add some content to the topic, i showed you the topics at hand
salaam

Edited by alimohamad40, 24 May 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[~Zee Zee~]

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

[Ismahan007]

alimohamad40, on 24 May 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Ismahan its been a while I wanted to tell you that you are one of the worst if not the worst when it comes to

arrogance
hypcorisy
compound ignorance
incompetence
and many other bad traits

You have to work to eradicate these problems otherwise they will grow and get dangerous and destroy your life...

I dont even want to go into discussing your ideology and your countless contradictions but one example i want to give you which might make you think:


On one side you support yaser alhabeeb and on another side you support western femenism ???  how on earth can you combine those two ?


yaser alhabeeb was saying " umar is gay thats why he opposed muta because he loved sodomy"  

so do you agree with yaser on this or umar??

you are in no position to say any thing about any one here. you are the worst kind of men any society should be aware of. everyone here is free to express their views esp when ppl like you use islam to hide their covert actions. you always accuse sisters here of 'feminism' for the simple fact that they dont agree with ur disgusting views that r wrapped by false ahadith coz you're a jahil who doesnt even know what feminism means.. I have never been called anything you attributed to me on here in my life. this site is the worst place ive ever seen. but I wont take it to heart, a mutt like you can not hurt my feeling.

I dont wanna discuss any of my beliefs with you, you claim to have knowledge but walaah you have nothing. you're the very first person on here I saw who defends aisha.. telling me to not compare my self with her and bla bla... anyway I suggest you find something other than women to make ur 'life' more exiting. you obviously have nothing else to do.

Edited by Ismahan007, 24 May 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[macisaac]

So much for discussion of issues instead of personalities..

[Abu Hadi]

To br. Kadhim,

Yes, in the big cities, there was a fourth category, which were government employees. They managed the big projects, which were carried out by slaves.
You can check your history sources. If I am wrong, please post again on this thread so I can educate myself and others.

To Br. Mutah_King

The problem isn't that we don't agree on the structure, mostly, it is there. If someone wants to know how to do mutah, they can go the resallah of their marjaa and if they need to do it, then they can. The problems is that, most of the time when the issue is brought up, it is done to cause arguments and not to discuss or learn. I thought of asking the team to ban mutah topics all together, except that there are maybe 1 out of 100 who have legitimate questions about the topic and the answer would acutally help them in their deen. There was a thread a few weeks back in this category.

To Br. alimo and Lebanese Princess.

I think that both of you are good and sincere people and you are trying to follow Al Islam and have love for Ahl Al Bayt in your hearts. The problem is that you both love and seek confrontation, and this is not a good quality, most of the time. The word Islam comes from Salam which means peace and in order to follow Islam, we should try to surround ourselves with peace and tranquility except for the times when we are specifically commanded by Allah(s.w.a) or our Imams to confront falsehood. I think you both should take a break from SC for a while. Go out and take a walk in the sunshine, smell the flowers, go buy a few handbags if that makes you feel better, , do something other than sitting in front of a computer. It may brighten your day. Salam and congradulations to all on the coming of the Holy Month of Rajab. Tonight is the night of wishes (first thursday in Rajab) try to take advantage of it. Please look at the following link and take some benefit from this night.

http://www.duas.org/rajab_1st_thu.htm

Edited by Abu Hadi, 24 May 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Dawud.]

This thread right here....

[ImAli]

Blissful just liked a post.....blissful is back

[Haydar Husayn]

macisaac, on 23 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Should the woman be annoying her husband with her jealousy?  No, but is it that she’s just some evil women whose nearly a kafir?  Of course not, the Imam simply explains it’s normal reaction to the fact of her loving him.

Yes, of course. However, I think it's obvious that 'annoying her husband' is the very least of what the women on here would be doing if their husband took another wife (permanent or temporary).

Quote

There it’s explicitly being done as a way of re-emphasizing its legitimacy in against those who said it was haram.

There doesn't seem to be much doubt in looking at the narrations, that reviving the Sunna is one of the major reasons why muta was so emphasised. However, I think it might be going too far to imply that it was the only reason. For example:

6 – And in al-Khisal from his father from Sa`d from Hammad b. Ya`la b. Hammad from his father from Hammad b. `Isa from Hariz b. `Abdillah from Zurara b. A`yan from Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: The amusement (lahw) of the believer is in three things: Mut`a with women and joking with brethren and salat at night.

Now, if muta with women is one of the amusements of the believer, then this would seem to be quite independent of reviving the Sunna. In addition, there are other narrations about the desirability of having a love of women.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya the perfumer from `Abdullah b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from Aban b. `Uthman from `Umar b. Yazid from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: I do not reckon that a man shall increase goodly in faith until he increases in the love of women.

2 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim b. Hashim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Ishaq b. `Ammar from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: From the akhlaq of the prophets is the love of women.

5 – And from him from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Bakkar b. Kardam and more than one, from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said:  The coolness of my eye has been put in salat, and my pleasure in women.

http://www.tashayyu....aries/chapter-3

Etc.

You can also throw in that muta was mentioned as being a recompense for the banning of alcohol:

7 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Ali b. Asbat from one of our companions from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in a hadith wherein he said: Verily Allah has been merciful to you, and He made mut`a in in recompense (or, in substitution) for you from drinks.

9 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: Verily Allah ÊÈÇÑß æÊÚÇáì forbade our Shi`a the intoxicant of every drink, and recompensed them from that with mut`a.

There are also ahadith where it seems that a person has done muta in the past, but not recently, and the Imam tells him that he should do it again.


12 – And by the isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid from Sa`d b. Sa`d from Isma`il al-Ju`fi.  He said: Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said: O Isma`l, have you done mut`a this year?  I said: Yes.  He said: I do not mean the mut`a of hajj.  I said: So what then?  He said: The mut`a of women.  I said: With a Berber slave girl.   He said: It had been said, O Isma`il, do mut`a with what you find, even a Sindhi woman.

If Isma`il had never done muta before, then it's not obvious why the Imam would have asked him whether he had done it 'this year'. Why not just asked him if he had ever done it?

13 – And by the isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Ashyam from Marwan b. Muslim from Isma`il b. al-Fadl al-Hashimi.  He said: Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said to me: Have you done mut`a since you have gone out from your family?  I said: Due to the abundance of what is with me of wives, Allah has made me needless of it.  He said: And even if you are needless, for verily I love that you should revive the Sunna of the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå.

Again, why not just ask if he had ever done it? Seems strange to be so specific.

And finally, there are huge rewards for doing muta, so you can't blame someone for wanting to benefit from that:

15 – And from Ibn `Isa from Muhammad b. `Ali al-Hamdani from a man whom he named from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: There is not a man who does mut`a then does ghusl but that Allah creates for every drop (of water) that drops from him seventy angels seeking forgiveness for him until the day of the resurrection and cursing the avoider of it (i.e. of mut`a) until the Hour rises.

Quote

4 – And from a number of our companions from Sahl b. Ziyad from Muhammad b. al-Hasan b. Shammun.  He said: Abu ‘l-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã wrote to some of his supporters: Do not insist on mut`a, only the establishment of the Sunna is upon you.  So do not preoccupy (yourself) with it from your beds and free (women), then they would do kufr and bara’at and call upon the authorities to you by that, and they would curse us.

Seems to me like the bolded part is the most relevant part. The risk was that the Shia would be reported to the authorities. So this seems to be a case of taqiyyah, as in other narrations such as:

5 – And from them from Sahl from `Ali b. Asbat and Muhammad b. al-Husayn all from al-Hakam b. Miskeen from `Ammar.  He said: Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said to me and Sulayman b. Khalid: I have forbidden mut`a upon you two by me so long as you remain in Madina, for you have increased your entering in upon me and I fear that they take you and it be said: These are the companions of Ja`far.

The only reason this companion was told not to do muta while in Madina was for reasons of taqiyyah because he was a regular visitor of the Imam . I neither case was the person told to stop doing muta because he had being doing it too much, rather it seems to have been for reasons of safety.

When the Imams have been asked about numbers, they haven't put any limit on it, and basically seem to be telling people to do it as often as they want, comparing women married in muta to slave girls or saying that they are 'rented women'.

2 – And from him from Ahmad b. Ishaq from Sa`dan b. Muslim from `Ubayd b. Zurara from his father from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: I mentioned mut`a to him, is she from the four?  So he said: Marry a thousand of them, for they are rented women.

6 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: I said to him: How many are allowed in mut`a?  So he said: They are of the status of slave women.

Quote

Now what about having mut`a with a loose women or even a prostitute, something else that gets brought up here with long lists of fatawa to somehow prove the point.  Thing is there’s a clear difference between saying something is a legitimate marriage (i.e. it’s not fornication and so no punishment for it) and then actually encouraging one to engage in it..  In the case of going with such a woman, one can fiqhi see the argument that the haram does not make the halal haram, so the woman’s haram lifestyle doesn’t in itself make the halal route (marriage) forbidden.  But should you do it?

Yes, I don't see how it would be possible to argue that muta with a prostitute is ever anything more than an absolute last resort, and it is obviously not something to be recommended in the least.

Quote

Now what about engaging in mut`a when you already have a wife?  Now that could be argued either way.  Generally it would be considered permissible, though the above recommendation either seem not to apply or at least not be so strong, for example:

2 – And from him from al-Mukhtar b. Muhammad b. al-Mukhtar and from Muhammad b. al-Hasan from `Abdullah b. al-Hasan al-`Alawi all from al-Fath b. Yazid.  He said: I asked Abu ‘l-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã about mut`a.  So he said: It is absolutely halal (and) permissible for the one whom Allah has not made him free of need by marriage so he seeks chastity by mut`a.  So he is without need of it by marriage, then it is permissible for him if he is absent from her.

See the conditionality of availability of the wife above?  So it’s not necessarily just cut and dry, it’s the man’s right and that’s that as some might think it is.

On the other hand:

13 – And by the isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Ashyam from Marwan b. Muslim from Isma`il b. al-Fadl al-Hashimi.  He said: Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said to me: Have you done mut`a since you have gone out from your family?  I said: Due to the abundance of what is with me of wives, Allah has made me needless of it.  He said: And even if you are needless, for verily I love that you should revive the Sunna of the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå.

Quote

And what about engaging in mut`a with non-Muslim women (which is generally what we’d be talking about here in these societies).  Well, if you have a Muslim wife already, you really should think twice about it:

Yeah, for sure. I don't think it's a very good idea, but on the other hand there seem to be contradictory ahadith on this, and it's easier to reconcile them by saying that it is permissible to do muta with kitabi women (even if it is disliked).

2 – And from him from al-Hasan b. `Ali b. Faddal from one of our companions from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.  He said: There is no harm with the man doing mut`a with the Jewish woman and the Christian woman while there is a freewoman with him.

3 – And from him from Muhammad b. Sinan from Aban b. `Uthman from Zurara.  He said: I heard him saying: There is no harm that one marries the Jewish woman and the Christian woman in mut`a while there is a wife with him.

[Alejandro Sosa]

can someone please reconcile the above hadiths with the Quran telling us not to chase after the dunya and its distractions like money and women?

how on earth does committing mutah for the sake of it make us better Muslims..does not make sense whatsoever

[Haydar Husayn]

Alejandro Sosa, on 24 May 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

can someone please reconcile the above hadiths with the Quran telling us not to chase after the dunya and its distractions like money and women?

how on earth does committing mutah for the sake of it make us better Muslims..does not make sense whatsoever

Why was it allowed to have slave girls then? You shouldn't chase after these things, but there is nothing wrong in itself with having wealth or enjoying women. It's all about moderation and balance.

[ShahBano_BZ]

Haydar Husayn, on 24 May 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

When the Imams have been asked about numbers, they haven't put any limit on it, and basically seem to be telling people to do it as often as they want, comparing women married in muta to slave girls or saying that they are 'rented women'.

2 – And from him from Ahmad b. Ishaq from Sa`dan b. Muslim from `Ubayd b. Zurara from his father from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said: I mentioned mut`a to him, is she from the four?  So he said: Marry a thousand of them, for they are rented women.

Rented women ?

Thank you for clarifying . I would have never understood this thing otherwise.

[Haydar Husayn]

ShahBano_BZ, on 24 May 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Rented women ?

Thank you for clarifying . I would have never understood this thing otherwise.

What do you think you have understood? In my experience, those who claim to have suddenly understood something after having read hadiths like that usually haven't understood anything at all, and allowing their emotions to take over and end up reading far too much into what is said.

[Ismahan007]

Haydar Hussayn, haven't you ever thought for once that all these countless 'narrations' in favor of mutah or 'slaves' could be fabrications by corrupt 'scholars' we had in the past?

[ShahBano_BZ]

Haydar Husayn, on 24 May 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

What do you think you have understood? In my experience, those who claim to have suddenly understood something after having read hadiths like that usually haven't understood anything at all, and allowing their emotions to take over and end up reading far too much into what is said.

No, I  was referring to word "rent" and I meant that this particular word sort of put the picture or debate in its real context and helped me to understand it. I was not being sarcastic or something.

Besides, while trying to understand something or studying something---be it any aspect of human psychology or temperament or a religious/scholastic debate, I try to keep my emotions out of it, how would I understand it otherwise.

[Haydar Husayn]

ShahBano_BZ, on 24 May 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

No, I  was referring to word "rent" and I meant that this particular word sort of put the picture or debate in its real context and helped me to understand it. I was not being sarcastic or something.

Besides, while trying to understand something or studying something---be it any aspect of human psychology or temperament or a religious/scholastic debate, I try to keep my emotions out of it, how would I understand it otherwise.

Just as long as the word 'rent' doesn't conjure up any associations with prostitution, as it often does with people. It is simply reflecting the fact that the contract is temporary. Formally speaking, a marriage contract (note that I said a marriage contract, not a marriage) boils down to an exchange of a mahr (and maintenance) in return for sexual rights. In other words, it is a purchase of sorts. So if you only get those rights for a fixed period of time, then this is analogous to a renting arrangement. So if a muta wife is a 'rented woman', then a permanent wife is a 'bought woman', from a certain point of view. Obviously this is not all there is to an Islamic marriage (of either type), but if you strip everything away, this is how it can be seen. It's nothing to be offended about.

Ismahan007, on 24 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Haydar Hussayn, haven't you ever thought for once that all these countless 'narrations' in favor of mutah or 'slaves' could be fabrications by corrupt 'scholars' we had in the past?

Once you go down that road, then there is no reason to believe in any hadith. They could all be fabricated by scholars. How do you know that the hadiths in favour of Ali weren't fabricated? How do you know the ones that emphasise the importance of wilayah weren't fabricated? How do you know that much of Muslim history as we know it, which is almost entirely preserved only in Muslim sources, isn't fabricated? How do you know the ones Yassir al-Habib loves to quote against Aisha and Umar weren't fabricated (and let's face it, many of them probably were)?

If you reject the mutawatir hadiths in favour of muta, then you have no reason to accept all those ahadith that aren't even mutawatir, let alone the ones that are. You need to have some objective standards for analysing these things, and you can't reject something just because it doesn't correspond with what you've been brought up to believe.

If 'corrupt scholars' were capable of fabricating this number of hadiths just to satisfy their own desires, then there is nothing they weren't capable of fabricating. So why trust anything in our books at all? You might as well become a Qur'an only Muslim. Although that isn't a position that makes any sense either, since then you are in a position of trusting those who collected and preserved the Qur'an.

As for slavery, all the narrations correspond completely with what the Qur'an says, so I don't see why anything would need to be fabricated there.

[ShahBano_BZ]

" there is nothing to be offended about"

No, I am not offended about anything. I understood the nature of things even long before I  started to read and study about religious philosophy.
I have accepted things as they are, made peace with them, closed the door and moved on.

[ShahBano_BZ]

Ismahan007, on 24 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Haydar Hussayn, haven't you ever thought for once that all these countless 'narrations' in favor of mutah or 'slaves' could be fabrications by corrupt 'scholars' we had in the past?

Ismahaan,

Stop doing this to your self, stop hurting yourself for nothing. I know what you are trying to say; once in our history class our Sister said that whenever and wherever a woman is exploited or degraded , it diminishes all other women in some way.

Listen, you stop looking for answers and justification and explanations where there are none, just accept the things the way they are , make your peace with them, close the door and move on.

When some months back, I told my father that I want to study about religion , he was a bit apprehensive---afraid that I would end up disappointed, disillusioned and bitter. In his fatherly attempt to provide a buffer he said to me that no matter what I read, what evidence I am provided with, I have to promise him that I would never let anything pull me down . Even if everything points, with concrete evidence, towards the sub-human status of women, I would always remember this thing,  no matter what God says, what Prophets say and religious scripture says and scholars say, that for him I would be always the most precious person on this earth. for him the validity of my existence would never be challenged by the fact whatever status I have in the cosmic scheme of  God.

Besides,-------Religion is not a buffet lunch, you can't choose and pick things , which you like and ignore which looks unsavory. You have to accept the whole deal or leave the whole package, there is no way in between.

[Mutah_King]

ShahBano_BZ, on 25 May 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Ismahaan,

Stop doing this to your self, stop hurting yourself for nothing. I know what you are trying to say; once in our history class our Sister said that whenever and wherever a woman is exploited or degraded , it diminishes all other women in some way.

Listen, you stop looking for answers and justification and explanations where there are none, just accept the things the way they are , make your peace with them, close the door and move on.

When some months back, I told my father that I want to study about religion , he was a bit apprehensive---afraid that I would end up disappointed, disillusioned and bitter. In his fatherly attempt to provide a buffer he said to me that no matter what I read, what evidence I am provided with, I have to promise him that I would never let anything pull me down . Even if everything points, with concrete evidence, towards the sub-human status of women, I would always remember this thing,  no matter what God says, what Prophets say and religious scripture says and scholars say, that for him I would be always the most precious person on this earth. for him the validity of my existence would never be challenged by the fact whatever status I have in the cosmic scheme of  God.

Besides,-------Religion is not a buffet lunch, you can't choose and pick things , which you like and ignore which looks unsavory. You have to accept the whole deal or leave the whole package, there is no way in between.

Excellent post.

[hubbe_hussein110]

^^ i second that. Mashallah