92 replies to this topic

[Dhulfiqar]

I think you are reading too much into what I wrote...

There are no fatwas against her. The stance is the voice of a lone woman is makrooh (some have suggested haram) to be heard by na mahrums. Therefore, men should not listen to her lectures. That's it.

But let me make this clear again, no Maulana has issued any fatwas against her.

Wow, you're gonna get me trouble if you derive such assumptions

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

[Abuzar]

Dhulfiqar, on Mar 9 2008, 02:10 AM, said:

When the Old Mullahs found out that men were listening to T.B. speak they realized another front had just opened up hitting their wallets. So fatwas shortly started being rolling out about it being Haram to listen to a woman's voice...etc. etc. etc.

Abuzar, on Mar 9 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

What you have said - and I have highlighted in red - is news to me. Would you be kind enough to identify the ones you have accused?

Abuzar, on Mar 9 2008, 10:58 AM, said:

You have ... said that some mullahs have given fatwas against her. I don't know of any such happening. So, I had requested that the 'mullahs' be identified.

Dhulfiqar, on Mar 9 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

I think you are reading too much into what I wrote...

There are no fatwas against her. The stance is the voice of a lone woman is makrooh (some have suggested haram) to be heard by na mahrums. Therefore, men should not listen to her lectures. That's it.

But let me make this clear again, no Maulana has issued any fatwas against her.

Wow, you're gonna get me trouble if you derive such assumptions

I was reading only and exactly what you wrote, and nothing into it. I take it that the latest version is what you are standing by. So who are the ones accused of having reacted to her majalis with

Quote

The stance [that] the voice of a lone woman is makrooh (some have suggested haram) to be heard by na mahrums. Therefore, men should not listen to her lectures.

Edited by Abuzar, 09 March 2008 - 05:37 AM.

[Rawshni]

Abuzar, on Mar 9 2008, 12:50 AM, said:

I would add one more thing: we should even refrain from sharing possibly negative aspects that are known to us with certainty but are not public knowledge. Again, this is a generic statement, not specifically about any one person.

I have it on unimpeachable authority that the above should be our modus operandi in every situation, concerning every person, the only exception being when when someone is enquiring about a person in relation to a marriage proposal

Quote

A few years ago we realised the paucity of knowledgable lady speakers in Lahore, especially in and around Model Town. The few that are there are too busy exactly because of this. I persuaded my salhaj a few years ago to start addressing majalis. She is an intelligent, well-read and well-spoken lady whose topics are mainly related to akhlaaqiaat based on anecdotes from lives of infallibles .

Good for you and good for Lahore. There are also some pretty good speakers amon the younger set of Khwajgaan Narowali women -

Quote

I am not old enough to know these things first-hand, but I have it on good authority that Hafiz sahab was a person who never asked for any hadiya. This editor is known to have been a person of doubtful integrity, and its was naive of Hafiz sahab to have let him deal on his behalf.

That person was an indubitable crook. He also defrauded Allameh Syed Mohammad Dehlavi of Karachi.

[Dhulfiqar]

Abuzar, on Mar 9 2008, 10:33 AM, said:

I was reading only and exactly what you wrote, and nothing into it. I take it that the latest version is what you are standing by. So who are the ones accused of having reacted to her majalis with

You should highlight the complete text but even the text you highlight does not say you believe it said:

When the Old Mullahs found out that men were listening to T(ayaba) B. speak they realized another front had just opened up hitting their wallets. So fatwas shortly started being rolling out about it being Haram to listen to a woman's voice...etc. etc. etc.

[...]

Since you know now, there's no need to explain it

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

[Abuzar]

^



Actually, I don't know.

[pink]

Dhulfiqar, on Mar 9 2008, 04:50 AM, said:

The stance is the voice of a lone woman is makrooh (some have suggested haram) to be heard by na mahrums. Therefore, men should not listen to her lectures. That's it.

assalamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah
I have not come across a ruling that it is makruh for a woman to talk to a non-mahram man. I have found these:

Quote

* íÌæÒ ááÃÌäÈíÉ ÅÓãÇÚ ÕæÊåÇ ááÃÌÇäÈ¡ ÅáÇ ãÚ ÎæÝ ÇáæÞæÚ Ýí ÇáÍÑÇã.Á
(ÇáÝÞå ááãÛÊÑÈíä¡ ÔÄæä ÇáäÓÇÁ¡ ã #505)
[I]t is permissible for [a non-mahram woman] to make herself be heard by non-mahram men except when there is fear of getting sucked into a haram act.
(Minhaj as-Salihin, Vol 2, p 15 as quoted in A Code of Practice for Muslims in the West, Women's Issues, General Rules, #458)
* Women are permitted to speak to non-mahram men as long as the following conditions are met: 1) The speaking is not done with the intention of lust and seeking sexual pleasure. 2) The woman does not make her voice soft and attractive. 3) There is no fear of falling into corruption. When a woman is speaking to a man, she must not make her voice pleasing and soft... (A Code of Ethics for Muslim Men and Women, compiled by Sayyid Mas`ud Ma`sumi, translated by Arifa Hudda and Saleem Bhimji; Chapter III: Rules Related to Socializing, Part II: Women Talking to Non-Mahram Men, rules 182-183, pp104-105; rulings obtained from Minhaj as-Salihin and Risalah Tawdih al Masa'il)
* [Mut`ah] is not required [in order to discuss and talk with someone of the opposite sex on the internet]. -Asgharali M.M. Jaffer (as posted on Dar es Salaam Tabligh www.dartablish.org  retrieved Sat 01 Mar 2008 17:27 +0100 CET and Fri 25 Apr 2008 13:00 by self)
* There is no harm in men listening [to recordings of ladies' Islamic classes] for the described purpose [the discussions are informative]. -Asgharli M.M. Jaffer (as posted on Dar es Salaam Tabligh www.dartabligh.org retrieved Sat 01 Mar 2008 17:33 +0100 CET and Fri 25 Apr 2008 13:00 by self)

If anyone can provide a ruling demonstrating that it is makruh, please paste it in so that I can add it to my collection. Thank you.

[Abuzar]

^


Welcome back, sister.

A thought: Had it been makruh, would the infallible Sayyeda Zahra (salaam Ulllah alaiha) have voluntarily delivered the sermon of Fadak in the usurper's court?

[Sayeda_110]

Salamz
I heard sister Tayaba bukhari for the 1stt ime this year as she read muharam ashra in our imambargah - I found her to be truly amazing and read EXCELLENT Majlis ... and the masaib were da best i have heard in a longtime.... she doesnt scream and shout like some readers do.... yet she makes u want to cry more than u are physically able 2!!!!

Her knowledge is clearly evident of a VERY HIGH AND RESPECTABLE Level...

2 points i want to share with those who are so quick to judge and critisize her!


1- "Make up" - Agreed she is there to read a majlis.... But 1 saying comes to mind "Dont Judge a book by its Cover"...  I.E. Just becoz she wore a slight amount of make up doesnt make her a bad person nor is that a reason to speak badly about her and critisize her!! She is not wearing make up to celebrate anything or show off... She may well be doing it for personal like-ness?? Its doesnt mean she has disrespected muharam in anyway.... Im sure most women (with exception of 10th im sure) still do their Eyebrows and other beautifications dont they?? Does that mean they are disrespectin gmuharam- NO.

2- "Expensive" - Simple explanation for this is.... Here in the UK... When you go to study at University for your education... there are lots of Various universities and places of Study.... Ranging from the very basic/low standard cheaper ones e.g. "South Bank/Kingston etc"  and then you have the More advanced and upper level Expensive ones e.g. "Oxford/Cambridge/Imperial" etc..... Now both are providing the same kind of education- however 1 is more highly recognised and valued than the other... Oxford charges much higher Fees than South Bank Because the Education level and teaching is much higher and more advanced....
Therefore in the same sense some one like Tayaba Bukhari who is much more educated and has advanced level of knowledge and understanding from her QUM Studies - which we shud be very grateful and appreciative that we are able to share that with her and listen to her... Therefore she has every right to charge a higher price than other zakira's -- as she is providing much higher level of knowledge!!

Anyway thats my understanding and opinion of the matter.... I hope i havent offended anyone - it wasnt my intention to do so....

However i must stress regardless of what they charge/what they do/look like etc.... No one should be bad-mouthing or critisizing (without PROPER validated reason- not just what You think or feel) about anyone who does "zikr-e-Ahlulbait " especially someone who has spent so much time and effort to study in qum (or any other place) and then dedicate their life (as opposed to a normal job etc) to share this knowledge with others....
When you are about to critisize some one who does "zikr-e-Ahlulbait " (not just majlis readers, but noha/qasida readers.. anyone who does Zikr!) - think of what Bibi Fatima (sa) would think??  Read up on how Bibi Fatima (sa) feels about these ppl, because she has said she loves dearly those who do Zikr of her Son Imam Hussain and Ahlulbait - so values them very much and will reward and thank them on Day of Judgement ........ So just think of how she would feel of you denouncing someone she loves dearly?!!?

Sorry cant remember the exact reference and her wordings etc so if someone has the exact reference or hadith regarding the above... please feel free to post and correct me if im wrong


Jazakallah

[Abuzar]

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

Salamz
I heard sister Tayaba bukhari for the 1stt ime this year as she read muharam ashra in our imambargah - I found her to be truly amazing and read EXCELLENT Majlis ...

As stated in my first post  in this discussion, my opinion is that "... she is one of the good orators around in Pakistan today ..." I respect your right to your way of putting it as you have done above.

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

and the masaib were da best i have heard in a longtime.... she doesnt scream and shout like some readers do.... yet she makes u want to cry more than u are physically able 2!!!!

Each orator has his/her own way, and each listener his/her own preference of how masa'eb are narrated. I have heard Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari narrating masa'eb, and I have heard some others (including lady orators). Yes, her oration of masa'eb is good in its own way, but I have heard other zaakiras who - in my opinion - surpassed her delivery, e.g. Khanum Ma'suma Jafri (who is studying at Qum) narrated masaeb with Ziarat-e 'Ashura in a manner that I find best among ladies that I have heard. But, as I said, it is a matter of opinion ....

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

Her knowledge is clearly evident of a VERY HIGH AND RESPECTABLE Level...

No one her has criticized the level of her knowledge. In fact, in my first post on this thread, I had agreed that "... relatively speaking, she is quite knowledgable when compared to the general level of knowledge possessed by most zakiras in Pakistan." However, the possibility that other aalimas who are attending dars-e kharij may have been able to reach levels of knowledge higher than hers is quite distinct.

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

2 points i want to share with those who are so quick to judge and critisize her!

Criticizing her person is indeed in poor taste. Lack of praise for certain acts is another thing - irrespective of who is commiting them.

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

1- "Make up" - Agreed she is there to read a majlis.... But 1 saying comes to mind "Dont Judge a book by its Cover"...  I.E. Just becoz she wore a slight amount of make up doesnt make her a bad person nor is that a reason to speak badly about her and critisize her!! She is not wearing make up to celebrate anything or show off... She may well be doing it for personal like-ness?? Its doesnt mean she has disrespected muharam in anyway.... Im sure most women (with exception of 10th im sure) still do their Eyebrows and other beautifications dont they?? Does that mean they are disrespectin gmuharam- NO.

Whether or not she wears make up - and, if so, the extent thereof - has not been established in the foregoing discussion. However, again irrespective of who is doing it, the act of wearing visible make-up while sitting on minbar-e Rasul is against decorum of minbar in the same - or even worse - way that while it may not be inappropriate for a male aalim to wear T-shirt and jeans in his everyday life, but going to the minbar wearing this garb instead of 'amaama, 'abaa and qabaa will demonstrate a lack of respect on his part for the decorum of the minbar, though he will perhaps not be committing a prohibited (haraam) act. And his act will attract criticism.  

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

2- "Expensive" - Simple explanation for this is.... Here in the UK... When you go to study at University for your education... there are lots of Various universities and places of Study.... Ranging from the very basic/low standard cheaper ones e.g. "South Bank/Kingston etc"  and then you have the More advanced and upper level Expensive ones e.g. "Oxford/Cambridge/Imperial" etc..... Now both are providing the same kind of education- however 1 is more highly recognised and valued than the other... Oxford charges much higher Fees than South Bank Because the Education level and teaching is much higher and more advanced....
Therefore in the same sense some one like Tayaba Bukhari who is much more educated and has advanced level of knowledge and understanding from her QUM Studies - which we shud be very grateful and appreciative that we are able to share that with her and listen to her... Therefore she has every right to charge a higher price than other zakira's -- as she is providing much higher level of knowledge!!

Again, no definitive information/evidence has been given in the foregoing discussion as to her being 'expensive' - and the foregoing discussion and not knowledge from other sources is what I will restrict my comments to - the act of putting a price - any price - on zikr-e Husain (alaihissalaam) itself is akin to trading in the blood of the Great Martyr (alaihissalam) and, therefore, reprehensible.

The simile of a secular university scholar does not apply to one who sits on the minbar-e Rasul insofar as unlike a university student a religious student does not study for earning commercial returns on his knowledge, irrespective of whether he studied with his own money or through khums. If, God forbid, he does so, it is an indication of his lack of piety (taqwa) and, resultantly, of superficiality of his 'knowledge'.

As one who has the honour of serving farsh-e 'aza let me confirm that there are religious scholars - including ladies - at formal scholarly levels higher than that of Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari  - who have addressed majalis or duroos at our request and not only not charged a penny, but also not showed any expectation of receiving any material reward. Had they asked for a specific amount, we would have considered that to be a disqualification for our extending them invitation to sit on minbar-e Rasul .  

Having said that, we have, however, always considered it to be our duty to present any scholar whom we invite with maximum hadiya that our resources allow.

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

Anyway thats my understanding and opinion of the matter.... I hope i havent offended anyone - it wasnt my intention to do so....

No offence taken, as far as I am concerned, though obviously we have divergent opinions.

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

However i must stress regardless of what they charge/what they do/look like etc.... No one should be bad-mouthing or critisizing (without PROPER validated reason- not just what You think or feel) about anyone who does "zikr-e-Ahlulbait " especially someone who has spent so much time and effort to study in qum (or any other place) and then dedicate their life (as opposed to a normal job etc) to share this knowledge with others....

Yes, I agree bad-mouthing shouldn't be done. Criticizing an act unbecoming of one who sits on minbar-e Rasul is, however, not only permitted but often a duty, lest those - including our children - who see this person as a role model find it appropriate to imitate that act.

Sayeda_110, on Oct 6 2008, 03:58 PM, said:

When you are about to critisize some one who does "zikr-e-Ahlulbait " (not just majlis readers, but noha/qasida readers.. anyone who does Zikr!) - think of what Bibi Fatima (sa) would think??  Read up on how Bibi Fatima (sa) feels about these ppl, because she has said she loves dearly those who do Zikr of her Son Imam Hussain and Ahlulbait - so values them very much and will reward and thank them on Day of Judgement ........ So just think of how she would feel of you denouncing someone she loves dearly?!!?

I would again submit that crtiticizing the person is one thing, but surely Bibi (salaam Ullah alaiha will not disapprove if we criticize the act of not maintaining proper decorum of the minbar of her father or trading in the blood of her son (alaihissalaam). It is, though, a natural corollary that criticizing the act would automatically reflect upon the person indulging in it.  

Iltimaas-e du'a

Edited by Abuzar, 13 October 2008 - 06:43 AM.

[baqir14]

I am living in Sydney, Australia and saw Khanum Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari interview on PTV. We would like to invite he to our Imambargha for ladies programme If anyone know the contact detail of Sister Khanum please forward to me on baqir@triforce.com.au.

[doobybrother]

baqir14, on 16 August 2010 - 03:13 PM, said:

I am living in Sydney, Australia and saw Khanum Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari interview on PTV. We would like to invite he to our Imambargha for ladies programme If anyone know the contact detail of Sister Khanum please forward to me on baqir@triforce.com.au.

Contact those at http://www.karbalawaley.org/index.php, they might be of some help

[sk00n]

I've loved Aalima Tayyaba Bukhari since i was like, 12 even though she kinda broke my heart when i asked for her autograph and she didn't give me one
Surprisingly, everyone on this thread has had a different kind of experience with her...
From what I know, She is an amazing and has a great amount of knowledge.
She IS quite expensive but that's justifiable.
And as for the make-up, I'm sure she has a valid reason for that. She's also really prettyyy lol just sayin'

[Marbles]

Khanum Tayyaba Bukhari

Urdu video with bits of English.

She is eloquent.

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

As per ahadith, it's recommended that women always stay in the inner most corner of their homes.

[Marbles]

Tayyaba Bukhari was on GEO today along with Samia Qazi of Jamat-e-Islami and spoke beautifully. The topic was the role of women in Karbala and Islam in general.

Bhooka_Bhairiya, on 16 December 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

As per ahadith, it's recommended that women always stay in the inner most corner of their homes.

Go away.

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

Marbles, on 16 December 2010 - 02:00 PM, said:

Tayyaba Bukhari was on GEO today along with Samia Qazi of Jamat-e-Islami and spoke beautifully. The topic was the role of women in Karbala and Islam in general.


Go away.

It's sad that you treat the words said to be narrated by Ahlulbayt(AS) in this manner. Anyhow, for those interested, I'll post the ahadith here:

[Marbles]

Bhooka_Bhairiya, on 16 December 2010 - 02:14 PM, said:

It's sad that you treat the words said to be narrated by Ahlulbayt(AS) in this manner. Anyhow, for those interested, I'll post the ahadith here:

I trust that Tayyaba Bukhari (as well as other ulema) understand the meaning of these ahadith more than you. I reject your interpretation and hence, go away.

Edited by Marbles, 16 December 2010 - 02:23 PM.

[inshaAllah]

[Gypsy]

Bhooka_Bhairiya, on 16 December 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

As per ahadith, it's recommended that women always stay in the inner most corner of their homes.

I am replying from the inner-most corner of my house;

…stop parroting the same thing over and over.  

Please do read what the users are posting. And if you know the answer, then feel free to help them out. If not, then stop arguing for no good reason. Akhlak is as important as the message that you are spreading.

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

Zareen, on 16 December 2010 - 03:55 PM, said:

I am replying from the inner-most corner of my house;

…stop parroting the same thing over and over.  

Please do read what the users are posting. And if you know the answer, then feel free to help them out. If not, then stop arguing for no good reason. Akhlak is as important as the message that you are spreading.

Ma'am, I just posted the ahadith. It's others who are arguing. As for my akhlaq, again I don't know what makes you feel that it is lacking(in this post at least). In fact, your own tone/manner suggests otherwise.

Anyhow, obviously it's very good that you are replying from the inner most corner of your home. May Allah(SWT) reward you for this and enable you to remain steadfast in this practice.

Nevertheless, it's also recommended in ahadith (Al-faqih, khisal, hilya etc) that among other things, women shouldn't sit in the upper portion of their homes and shouldn't be taught how to write, instead they should be taught sewing/spinning and surah al Nur should be recited to them and they shouldn't be allowed to read surah al-Yusuf.

ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÇáÞØÇä ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáÚÓßÑí ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæÚÈÏ Çááå ãÍãÏ Èä ÒßÑíÇ ÇáÈÕÑí ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚãÇÑÉ¡ Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÌÇÈÑ Èä íÒíÏ ÇáÌÚÝí ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÌÚÝÑ ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí ÇáÈÇÞÑ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá
æáÇ íÌæÒ áåä äÒæá ÇáÛÑÝ¡ æáÇ ÊÚáã ÇáßÊÇÈÉ¡ æíÓÊÍÈ áåä ÊÚáã ÇáãÛÒá¡ æÓæÑÉ ÇáäæÑ¡ æíßÑå áåä ÊÚáã ÓæÑÉ íæÓÝ


So therefore, we should strongly discourage this trend of female "scholars" as well as in fact discourage female membership on SC because women are not supposed to learn how to write in the first place.

Apologies if anyone feels offended by this, but please, I'm just stating the imami perspective through our ahadith.

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

Syeda Tayiba Bukhari is my relative, she is sister of my Uncle, Moulana Asad Raza Bukhari. She studies a lottt, whenever we visited there she is always reading books.

[inshaAllah]

Bhooka_Bhairiya, on 16 December 2010 - 04:53 PM, said:

Ma'am, I just posted the ahadith. It's others who are arguing. As for my akhlaq, again I don't know what makes you feel that it is lacking(in this post at least). In fact, your own tone/manner suggests otherwise.

Anyhow, obviously it's very good that you are replying from the inner most corner of your home. May Allah(SWT) reward you for this and enable you to remain steadfast in this practice.

Nevertheless, it's also recommended in ahadith (Al-faqih, khisal, hilya etc) that among other things, women shouldn't sit in the upper portion of their homes and shouldn't be taught how to write, instead they should be taught sewing/spinning and surah al Nur should be recited to them and they shouldn't be allowed to read surah al-Yusuf.

ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÇáÞØÇä ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáÚÓßÑí ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæÚÈÏ Çááå ãÍãÏ Èä ÒßÑíÇ ÇáÈÕÑí ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚãÇÑÉ¡ Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÌÇÈÑ Èä íÒíÏ ÇáÌÚÝí ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÌÚÝÑ ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí ÇáÈÇÞÑ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá
æáÇ íÌæÒ áåä äÒæá ÇáÛÑÝ¡ æáÇ ÊÚáã ÇáßÊÇÈÉ¡ æíÓÊÍÈ áåä ÊÚáã ÇáãÛÒá¡ æÓæÑÉ ÇáäæÑ¡ æíßÑå áåä ÊÚáã ÓæÑÉ íæÓÝ


So therefore, we should strongly discourage this trend of female "scholars" as well as in fact discourage female membership on SC because women are not supposed to learn how to write in the first place.

Apologies if anyone feels offended by this, but please, I'm just stating the imami perspective through our ahadith.

No you are not stating the Imami Perspective at all. You are only copy/pasting random ahadith to mock imami beliefs. If you continue with this non-sense, I will have to ban you for good.

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

inshaAllah, on 16 December 2010 - 05:31 PM, said:

No you are not stating the Imami Perspective at all. You are only copy/pasting random ahadith to mock imami beliefs. If you continue with this non-sense, I will have to ban you for good.

Well you are the admin so obviously you get to decide who stays or not. I can't argue with that.

But......I'm not mocking the shia imami perspective.

[_JuGNii]

^^^ Uh Oh..! so not long since our discussion lol...

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

_Sat, on 16 December 2010 - 05:51 PM, said:

^^^ Uh Oh..! so not long since our discussion lol...

Bas aunty ji, dua kariyay kay mods ka irada badal jaey.

Ab to aap ko ma'loom ho gaya hoga kay mods kiun hath dho kar meray peechay paray rahtay hain. Aimma(AS) ki ahadith kuch logon ko pasand nahin aati.