92 replies to this topic

[ya abaz zahra madad]

salam

bro, cud u plz tell me 4om where i can get the videos made of the majalis of khanum tayyaba at lhr?
and i hope u will upload those videos soon and plz do send a link when u do.
thnx

[Rawshni]

q-tip, on Apr 14 2007, 07:17 PM, said:

Actually there are people who proceeded Khanum Amini but in any case that has nothing to do with how much knowledge Maulatana Sayeda Bukhari has. On what basis do you say she does not have knowledge? Who has told you this? Because it is quite apparent you don't have all that much knowledge to make such comments by yourself.

I noticed your post # 7 and this one today.

Do tell us all about who preceded Khanom Nushat Amini to the level of ijtehaaf, who were the Maraj'e who gave her the ijazeh, when was the time when she was elevated to this status, any works by her, etc. etc.

If you still feel strongly that this is not the place to provide me this information, PM it to me, or send it to me via email.

Your post # 7 does not require any response.

Wassalaam

[Firoz Ali]

Salaam Alaiqum,
Yaa Ali Madad haq hai

Both Alima Tayyaba Bukhari and Alima Raziya Najafi sre great great respected  scholars and famous
And Masha Allah both have studied in Qum-ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN

Those who pass judgements on these two great scholars shud frst have a  look the status of their own Ilm

Shias R proud of these two Aalimas

There R Thousand and thousands of Pakistani Shias who stay and study in Islamic Republic of Iran and have special Love in their heart for Islamic Republic of Iran

I feel,Islamic repubic of Iran must be realy realy Proud of giving the Shia world such great Aalimas like Alima Tayyaba and Aalima Razia


Allah Hafiz
Yaa Ali Madad

Firoz Ali

Edited by Firoz Ali, 27 April 2007 - 02:11 AM.

[Abuzar]

Rawshni, on Apr 24 2007, 10:49 PM, said:

This is not just an issue concerning one zakira. It is something of far greater magnitude.
Bhaee Abuzar, since you are Lahore based I will use some examples from Lahore to elaborate a certain observation regarding Tayyeba not making any demands and accepting what little or much hadeiyeh that you people offered.

Nisar Haveli, Karbala Gaamay Shah, Gulistaan-e-Zahraa Abbot Road, Imambargah Sayyedeh Mubark Begum, Imam Bargha Khwagaan Narowaali and Jami Al Muntazar can be considered icons of the Shia in Lahore. And on a social plane the annual Mejalis held at Nasheman and Ashianeh, at the residence ofSheikh Mohammad Ilyas and Sons.

Now imagine for a moment, me, an unknown, or little known entity, being billed as the main zakir for the first Ashreh of Moharram, at one of these places. Or at those social mejalis I placed last above.

Wouldn't you be curious to hear what I have to say, spare time to listen to  a couple or more mejalis of mine.

Exposure is the word. People aspiring to become well known zakirs would love to speak at the mentioned places, even without any hidiyeh. It helps generate publicity, and, should I say, business?

The above does not in any way mean that such people may nat be aalims of avery high order.

Interesting hypothesis. However, from personal exprience I can confirm its lack of applicability (in reverse) in quite a few specific cases: when Dr. Kalbe Sadiq and Maulanas Zaki Baqri, Hasan Zafar Naqvi, Jan Ali Shah Kazmi, Muhammad Taqi Naqvi (aka Taqi Shah), Abbas Kumaili and Sadiq Hasan first agreed to address majalis at Jamia al Muntazar at our request, they were already established names. However, none of them asked us for hadiya then, nor do they do so now!      

______________________

Rawshni, on Apr 24 2007, 10:49 PM, said:

Now the other side.

Tayyeba is a single mother and has four growing kids. She lives in Islamabad, not one the cheapest cities in Pakistan. Like all the rest of us, she has a household to maintain. Being a rather well-known pesonage, she probably has to extend more hospitality to more people per month than the rest of us. And does anybody have an idea what it takes tp give a child quallity education in Pakistan. She has four [Allah rakhkhay].Like all the rest of us, she also has social needs to meets, illness, travel, etc. And of course, she also has to put aside a little something to save for a rainy day.

She has only one skill to sell, her oratory, only one goods to trade, her knowledge.

Why shouldn't she charge a premium if her skill is better than most or her goods of superior standard? Why on earth not?

A trader (tajir) would do that not a servant of farsh-e aza! And my contention is not with premium but with charging per se.

The orators that I have named above - with one exception - all belong to single-income middle class families and have to provide for their spouses and children. None of them have ever asked us for any money - before or after addressing majalis. I appreciate this tawakkul of theirs on Allah.

Rawshni, on Apr 24 2007, 10:49 PM, said:

The buck does not stop here . . .

_______________

This is where the buck stops.

Why have we chosen to limit ilm-e-deen to be the monopoly of a certain set of people. Talab-e-'ilm has been the enjoined as the fareedhe of ALL Muslimeen and Muslimaat. WE should be creating a learning society, in which every person is an 'aalim to some degree. WE concentrate on exactly the opposite, never failing to tell people that you cannot do or be this that or the other.

Why is that You cannot be the host and speaker at mejalis at your place and I at mine. Or better still, You at my plce and I at your's?

Theory of comparative advantage: the one best able to do something should do it. I, for one, lack religious knowledge and oration skills. I can write and have management skills. Lehaza mein likhta hoon aur farsh-e aza bichata hoon. Zaib-e minbar honay ko usi ko kehta hoon jo iss laeq nazar aaey

Rawshni, on Apr 24 2007, 10:49 PM, said:

Apart from certain avaricious people of whom both you and I are very well aware og, most zakirs and zakiras do not make demands. People,sometimes people who have absoluteky nothing to do with the organizing of mejalis, seem to enjoy defaming Shia speakers.

Jan Ali Shah is a case in point. You will hear it from all and sundry that he demanded this much, he damnded that much. I know it for a fact that he does not fix any fee, accepts whatever is offered, and has spoken at many mejalis hosted by people who could not pay anything, he put in an appearance, and again the next year if he was in Pakistan.

The above is something which I have also stated earler on these boards. Our issues with him are something which have no bearing at all in our saying what is commendable about him.
In fact it was, and it has been taken care of in an earlier post.

Agreed.

Hasan_Sajjad, on Apr 25 2007, 05:02 AM, said:

Well, I am not sure what the OP meant by expensive, as in, expensive for what?  Maybe she is only expensive for house-calls or not expensive at all for zikre-Hussain and only expensive for other lectures.  I say this because the only thing she asked for here in NY was a plane ticket, the masjid also only gave(she did not ask) her 200$ and she was happy and gave her word to return next year.  It is possible she is expensive in Pakistan, I wouldn't know.  I am speaking from my own experience.
Hasan Sajjad
President

As I said earlier, it is not how much but the act of asking for money in return for zikr-e Husain (alahissalam) that I find repugnant. Also it is not any person but this act associated with him/her that I have opposed. As I said, my personal experience of a few years ago with this scholar was that no demands were made.

ya abaz zahra madad, on Apr 26 2007, 09:56 PM, said:

salam

bro, cud u plz tell me 4om where i can get the videos made of the majalis of khanum tayyaba at lhr?
and i hope u will upload those videos soon and plz do send a link when u do.
thnx

They are available at Imambargah Bab-ul-Ilm, Nishat Colony when she addresses majalis there - the next being in early Jamadi us Sani. We will not be uploading any of those videos because as a matter of ethics we upload only those majalis that were arranged by us.

Firoz Ali, on Apr 27 2007, 10:22 AM, said:

Salaam Alaiqum,
Yaa Ali Madad haq hai

Both Alima Tayyaba Bukhari and Alima Raziya Najafi sre great great respected  scholars and famous
And Masha Allah both have studied in Qum-ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN

Those who pass judgements on these two great scholars shud frst have a  look the status of their own Ilm

Shias R proud of these two Aalimas

There R Thousand and thousands of Pakistani Shias who stay and study in Islamic Republic of Iran and have special Love in their heart for Islamic Republic of Iran

I feel,Islamic repubic of Iran must be realy realy Proud of giving the Shia world such great Aalimas like Alima Tayyaba and Aalima Razia

I, for one, am proud of all the Pakistani ulema (including the two ladies) whether they studied at Qum or like the Shaheed Quaid Arf al-Hussaini, at Najaf!

However, the act of asking for money for zikr-e Imam-e Mazloom ([i]alahissalam) is reprehensible - more so if committed by a religious scholar.

[Rawshni]

Abuzar, on Apr 27 2007, 07:35 AM, said:

Interesting hypothesis. However, from personal exprience I can confirm its lack of applicability (in reverse) in quite a few specific cases: when Dr. Kalbe Sadiq and Maulanas Zaki Baqri, Hasan Zafar Naqvi, Jan Ali Shah Kazmi, Muhammad Taqi Naqvi (aka Taqi Shah), Abbas Kumaili and Sadiq Hasan first agreed to address majalis at Jamia al Muntazar at our request, they were already established names. However, none of them asked us for hadiya then, nor do they do so now!

Well known to what extent. Lahore is a different "market" from Karachi. Relays aren't avaialable everywhere in Lahore and most of the relays originate in Karachi.

And as I said later on in the post you are responding to, most zakirs and zakiras do not fix any fees

Quote

A trader (tajir) would do that not a servant of farsh-e aza! And my contention is not with premium but with charging per se.

The orators that I have named above - with one exception - all belong to single-income middle class families and have to provide for their spouses and children. None of them have ever asked us for any money - before or after addressing majalis. I appreciate this tawakkul of theirs on Allah.

Have a heart bhaee. You can aver that they did not ask, but can you aver that they did not expect?

Like all the rest of us, these people have needs, and like all the rest of us, they may also have preferences in the fulfillment of their needs.  

For example, I can get a paperabck copy of the Nahj for a 100 odd rupees, but the one I have, lovingly calligraphed by a Turk master craftsman, printed on the finest parchment paper and bound in Olive green morroco with gold foiling is worth far, far more. What is to stop a zakir or zakira desiring desiring to possess such a beautiful edition of such uniquely beautiful sayings? What I am saying is, besides the basic necessities, they may desire the better things in life, and they have as much right to as us, if not more.

Now, if nobody were to offer them hadiyeh, where would they be?

They would become totally dependent upon dole from Khums. Which would place yet even more power in hands where too much power is concentrated already.

Quote

Theory of comparative advantage: the one best able to do something should do it. I, for one, lack religious knowledge and oration skills. I can write and have management skills. Lehaza mein likhta hoon aur farsh-e aza bichata hoon. Zaib-e minbar honay ko usi ko kehta hoon jo iss laeq nazar aaey

You cannot abdicate your obligation of "Utlebul 'ilm" and "Yatafakkur fil deen". Nor can you abdicate your responsibility of communicating to others what you know.

By the way, I didn't ask you to be zaib-e-minbar. If I ever ask you speak at a mejlis at my place, you'd either have to sit on a simple chair, or stand behind a podium, and deliver a speech presentation style.

Quote

Agreed.

Thank you. At least we do agree on some things.

Quote

As I said earlier, it is not how much but the act of asking for money in return for zikr-e Husain (alahissalam) that I find repugnant. Also it is not any person but this act associated with him/her that I have opposed. As I said, my personal experience of a few years ago with this scholar was that no demands were made.

We live in a market economy. The only way to avoid zikr-e-Ahle-Bayt and 'ilm-e-deen becoming a jins-e-bazaar
a market commodity is to keep trying to create a learning society wherein every person is a 'aalim of some appreciable degree.

It can be done. It will be done. Hamm naa karr payein, hamaaray bachchay, unn kay bachcay . . . yeh honaa hai, yeh ho gaa.

Quote

They are available at Imambargah Bab-ul-Ilm, Nishat Colony when she addresses majalis there - the next being in early Jamadi us Sani. We will not be uploading any of those videos because as a matter of ethics we upload only those majalis that were arranged by us.

In karachi they are sold at stalls set up at the venue of her mejalis. This is perhaps the reason we do not find Tayyeba's mejalis on the internet.

Quote

However, the act of asking for money for zikr-e Imam-e Mazloom ([i]alahissalam) is reprehensible - more so if committed by a religious scholar.

Maybe an absurd scenario, but quite possible. A zakir or zakira has no means of subsistence. He or she speaks at any and all mejalis he or she is asked to, and he or she is NOT offered any hadiyeh except duaa-e-khayr.

[Abuzar]

Rawshni, on Apr 29 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

Well known to what extent. Lahore is a different "market" from Karachi. Relays aren't avaialable everywhere in Lahore and most of the relays originate in Karachi.

And as I said later on in the post you are responding to, most zakirs and zakiras do not fix any fees

As I said that they have continued the practice of not asking for money even after many years when they have become independently well-known in Lahore.

Rawshni, on Apr 29 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

Have a heart bhaee. You can aver that they did not ask, but can you aver that they did not expect?

While it is beyond me to read their thoughts, the act of at least two of them of returning sealed envelopes with request to add it as their financial contribution shows what may be contsrued to be the apparent lack of expectation from sinning humans like me and tawakkul on Allah! By the way, we arrange the majalis through amalgamation of financial contributions of many people as I am not independently that rich - yet!  

Rawshni, on Apr 29 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

Like all the rest of us, these people have needs, and like all the rest of us, they may also have preferences in the fulfillment of their needs.

Quite so, and like some of us they should also pin their hopes and expectations to Allah through Bargah-e Sayyeda (Salaam Ullah Alaeiha), not indulge in price-fixing with us petty humans!  

Rawshni, on Apr 29 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

You cannot abdicate your obligation of "Utlebul 'ilm" and "Yatafakkur fil deen". Nor can you abdicate your responsibility of communicating to others what you know.

I haven't! However I choose the medium that I have relative command over: writing and managing azadari.

Rawshni, on Apr 29 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

By the way, I didn't ask you to be zaib-e-minbar. If I ever ask you speak at a mejlis at my place, you'd either have to sit on a simple chair, or stand behind a podium, and deliver a speech presentation style.

Minbar is what minbar does: a collection of palaan-e shutr can become the most important minbar, and conversely the 'minbar' of Damascus mosque may be no more than 'pieces of wood' in the eyes of my maula Ali ibne Husain Zain al-Abedin (alaihissalam).   

Rawshni, on Apr 29 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

We live in a market economy. The only way to avoid zikr-e-Ahle-Bayt and 'ilm-e-deen becoming a jins-e-bazaar
a market commodity is to keep trying to create a learning society wherein every person is a 'aalim of some appreciable degree.

It can be done. It will be done. Hamm naa karr payein, hamaaray bachchay, unn kay bachcay . . . yeh honaa hai, yeh ho gaa.

Both of us - and others - are doing it in our own individual styles. We should be big-hearted and non-Wahabi enough not to consider only our way right. And inshaAllah the generations that follow us shall improve upon what we are able to do.

Rawshni, on Apr 29 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

Maybe an absurd scenario, but quite possible. A zakir or zakira has no means of subsistence. He or she speaks at any and all mejalis he or she is asked to, and he or she is NOT offered any hadiyeh except duaa-e-khayr.

A possible scenario and one that actually happened once with Maulana Safdar Najafi. However, this didn't make him discard tawakkul on Allah!

[Rawshni]

Abuzar, on May 1 2007, 04:18 AM, said:

I am not independently that rich - yet!

Allah karey gaa . . . B'tassadaq-e-aal-e-Fatemah salaam ullah 'alaiha

Quote

Quite so, and like some of us they should also pin their hopes and expectations to Allah through Bargah-e Sayyeda (Salaam Ullah Alaeiha), not indulge in price-fixing with us petty humans!

Agreed

Quote

I haven't! However I choose the medium that I have relative command over: writing and managing azadari.

I don't know, I feel you could speek nicely

Minbar is what minbar does: a collection of palaan-e shutr can become the most important minbar, and conversely the 'minbar' of Damascus mosque may be no more than 'pieces of wood' in the eyes of my maula Ali ibne Husain Zain al-Abedin (alaihissalam).

Quote

Both of us - and others - are doing it in our own individual styles. We should be big-hearted and non-Wahabi enough not to consider only our way right. And inshaAllah the generations that follow us shall improve upon what we are able to do.

Quite true. And if you have noticed my statements on the matter, you will notice a total non-Wahhabiyyat in general regarding subjects we take issues with.

Quote

A possible scenario and one that actually happened once with Maulana Safdar Najafi. However, this didn't make him discard tawakkul on Allah!

Is this the same Maulanan Safdar Hussain Najafi who used to teach at the Jamia al Muntazar way back. Slim, of medium height, dabbta huwa gandumi rang, slightly rough voice. He wrote quite a few books too. Very good writer, but not as good a speaker, the same case as with Mufti Jafar Husain Sahab.

Is he still around? Please tell me more about hin [Safdar Hussain Najafi]. Must be quite an old man now.

Eltemaas-e-duaa

[Abuzar]

Rawshni, on May 1 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

Quite true. And if you have noticed my statements on the matter, you will notice a total non-Wahhabiyyat in general regarding subjects we take issues with.

Agreed.

Rawshni, on May 1 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

Is this the same Maulanan Safdar Hussain Najafi who used to teach at the Jamia al Muntazar way back. Slim, of medium height, dabbta huwa gandumi rang, slightly rough voice. He wrote quite a few books too. Very good writer, but not as good a speaker, the same case as with Mufti Jafar Husain Sahab.

Is he still around? Please tell me more about hin [Safdar Hussain Najafi]. Must be quite an old man now.

He passed away, and Jamia has not been the same after his demise. I shall inshaAllah share details about him some other time.

[Rawshni]

Abuzar, on May 1 2007, 01:30 PM, said:

He passed away, and Jamia has not been the same after his demise. I shall inshaAllah share details about him some other time.

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_________________

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I will anxiously await more about him.

By the way, did he immediately succeed Allameh Tayyeb Aljazaeri or was there any other 'aalim guiding the Jamia between his stewardship and Allameh Aljazaeri's.

Wassalaam

[Abuzar]

Abuzar, on Apr 26 2007, 08:29 AM, said:

Khanum Razia Batool is a Qum-based Pakistani religious scholar who is presently attending dars-e kharij. Over the past few years she has addressed majalis in various places during ayyam-e aza: Karachi (DHA imambargah & Mehfil-e-Murtaza), Faisalabad (Bostan-e-Zahra), Islamabad, Lahore, Dubai and London (Stanmore). This year, at our invitation she addressed majalis in Lahore at Jamia al-Muntazar (first ashra) and Qaumi Markaz Khawajgan (second ashra) besides tafseer sessions of sura ad-Dukhaan. Audio files of these majalis are ready and we hope to upload them soon.

Audio files of Khanum Razia's majalis have since been uploaded to  this website

[Rawshni]

^

Thank you so much for the information

[drnaqvi]

Is there any majlis by her available on internet?

Massalam

[Abuzar]

^



Apparently not.

When I googled her name, our website www.karbalawaley.org came on top! And we don't have any majalis of hers uploaded because when we addressed our majalis she didn't permit her voice to be recorded.

[GHULAMEPANJTAN]

Tayyiba Bukhari read in London (sudbury and Walthamstow) the first 9 days of Muharram.Its the 1st time ive heard her shes ok but aswell as being expensive i didnt like the fact that she wears make up when she comes to majlis. when muharram ka chand is sighted as a shia ur meant to be in mourning whether ur just listening to majlis or reciting it no make up no jewellery no making yourself look beautiful (apart from keeping yourself clean and tidy).
This is my opinion it angers me to see on the day of ashura women coming to the majalis wearing full make up i didnt see Tayyiba on the 10th but up until the 9th and beyond the 10th she was wearing make up whilst reciting, it just does not go. As u being a person who speaks in public u have influence over others whether u like it or not people do follow ur actions more than what u say.
On the point of being expensive the ones who were wanting her to recite asked her secretary who deals with her bookings to lower the fee of £500 but they were told that in Pakistan she does not take less than 40000Rs  for 1 majalis. NOTE she has a personal secretary obviously she is earning so much that she is able to have a secretary to speak on her behalf. Personally i think that is a waste of money. true this maybe her means of livelihood but its not good to be so greedy that u are laying the foundations of ur lifestyle on the blood of Maula Husayn .
For those in Lahore the first ashra of Muharram was recited by a zakira from london by the name of Ghazala Jaffri who does not fix her hadiya whatever u give her she takes she did not use to take hadiya only when her husband passed away she was left with six children (2 more than Tayyiba) that she asked for hadiya but even then whatever any1 gives her is sufficient. She is a person who practices what she preaches. And shes a damn good reciter ten times better than Tayyiba and a better person than her.
She is down to earth and a proper lover of Ahlul Bayt. Which is more than i can say about Tayyiba.
Im sorry but what is wrong is wrong You dont come to recite majalis wearing make up its a majalis NOT a milad.

[Abuzar]

GHULAMEPANJTAN, on Mar 7 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Tayyiba Bukhari read in London (sudbury and Walthamstow) the first 9 days of Muharram.

She used to address majalis in Islamabad, Lahore and two other towns in Punjab during the first ten days of Muharram till 1428 A.H. as some of you may have gathered from earlier exchanges on this thread.

GHULAMEPANJTAN, on Mar 7 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Its the 1st time ive heard her shes ok but aswell as being expensive i didnt like the fact that she wears make up when she comes to majlis.

Your profile does not state your gender. However, from the word 'Ghulam' I am assuming it to be male, unless you have followed the practice prevalent in Punjab where females also have 'Ghulam' as part of their name, e.g. Ghulam Bibi Bharwana from Rajwa Sadaat who was recently elected MNA.

If my assumption is correct, do inform how you were able to see her and her make up. If it is not correct, please correct it for the record.

GHULAMEPANJTAN, on Mar 7 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

when muharram ka chand is sighted as a shia ur meant to be in mourning whether ur just listening to majlis or reciting it no make up no jewellery no making yourself look beautiful (apart from keeping yourself clean and tidy).
This is my opinion it angers me to see on the day of ashura women coming to the majalis wearing full make up i didnt see Tayyiba on the 10th but up until the 9th and beyond the 10th she was wearing make up whilst reciting, it just does not go. As u being a person who speaks in public u have influence over others whether u like it or not people do follow ur actions more than what u say.

Before I comment on your observation, let me say that I wear black during majalis throughout the 9-odd weeks of mourning starting from 1st Muharram. I do so knowing that it is only mustahab (recommended) and not wajib (mandatory). However, I also realize that as a servant of farsh-e 'aza it is proper form to wear mourning dress and not appear as if one has just visited a saloon. This is equally, if not more, applicable to those who sit on the minbar, one reason being that such a person is - rightly or wrongly - looked up to as a model of behaviour.

I agree that visible make up worn by a saheb-e minbar is not in good taste or form.

    

GHULAMEPANJTAN, on Mar 7 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

On the point of being expensive the ones who were wanting her to recite asked her secretary who deals with her bookings to lower the fee of £500 but they were told that in Pakistan she does not take less than 40000Rs  for 1 majalis. NOTE she has a personal secretary obviously she is earning so much that she is able to have a secretary to speak on her behalf. Personally i think that is a waste of money. true this maybe her means of livelihood but its not good to be so greedy that u are laying the foundations of ur lifestyle on the blood of Maula Husayn .

Are you speaking from first-hand experience or are you basing your statement on hearsay? If first-hand, did you communicate directly with her first, or did you go directly to a 'secretary'?

As I have stated in a post above, when we used to arrange majalis of Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari at Lahore, she did not ask for or pre-arrange any sum of money, she did not have a 'secretary', and what amount we presented to her - which was much less than the sums mentioned by you above - was happily accepted by her.

Our subsequent experience with Khanum Razia Batool Najafi, and this year with another Qum-based scholar Ma'suma Jafri was similar.

GHULAMEPANJTAN, on Mar 7 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

For those in Lahore the first ashra of Muharram was recited by a zakira from london by the name of Ghazala Jaffri who does not fix her hadiya whatever u give her she takes she did not use to take hadiya only when her husband passed away she was left with six children (2 more than Tayyiba) that she asked for hadiya but even then whatever any1 gives her is sufficient. She is a person who practices what she preaches. And shes a damn good reciter ten times better than Tayyiba and a better person than her.
She is down to earth and a proper lover of Ahlul Bayt. Which is more than i can say about Tayyiba.

Each person's situation is different from others. So, such comparisons may not always be valid.

GHULAMEPANJTAN, on Mar 7 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Im sorry but what is wrong is wrong You dont come to recite majalis wearing make up its a majalis NOT a milad.

Certainly. A submission, however: it takes two to tango (taali 2 haath se bajti hey).

You have two objections against her: make-up and 'expense'. Did you protest to her directly about these objections of yours? Or did you at least stop going to her majalis to record a weaker form of protest?

Let's remember that it takes not only the sahib-e minbar but the arranger of majlis as well to make the 'hadiya' so exorbitant that it becomes out of reach of poor people to hold majalis. The arranger normally desires to have a big crowd and resultant fame that a 'big name' will bring, rather than the presence and pleasure of Syeda Zahra (salaam Ullah alaiha). Why out of hundreds of possible speakers invite only those who are 'expensive'? If we arrangers of majalis stopped this 'bidding', the 'expensive' objection would fizzle out atomatically.

Same goes for the hazireen (those who attend), especially ones who feel negatively about a certain aspect. If one cannot actively protest, he/she should at least do so passively by not adding to the attendance of majalis having objectionable bases as per his/her perception.

If we are part of the willing arrangers or crowd, we lose our moral right to object.

[Rawshni]

Abuzar, on Mar 8 2008, 02:09 AM, said:

Your profile does not state your gender. However, from the word 'Ghulam' I am assuming it to be male, unless you have followed the practice prevalent in Punjab where females also have 'Ghulam' as part of their name, e.g. Ghulam Bibi Bharwana from Rajwa Sadaat who was recently elected MNA.

If my assumption is correct, do inform how you were able to see her and her make up. If it is not correct, please correct it for the record.

Ghulam Panjtan is indeed a sister. She created a topic Zanjeerzani for Women prolly last year.

As for her assertion that Tayyebeh arrives at mejalis in make-up, I believe it is a misperception.

I have myself heard her in Karachi, where she addresses mejalis at Yathrib and Baqiyyatullah Trust.

She habitulally uses surma which is a sunnat, and "dandaasa" [I don't know what it is called in English] which, in regular use, imparts a dark hue to the lips and even gums.

Quote

Before I comment on your observation, let me say that I wear black during majalis throughout the 9-odd weeks of mourning starting from 1st Muharram. I do so knowing that it is only mustahab (recommended) and not wajib (mandatory). However, I also realize that as a servant of farsh-e 'aza it is proper form to wear mourning dress and not appear as if one has just visited a saloon. This is equally, if not more, applicable to those who sit on the minbar, one reason being that such a person is - rightly or wrongly - looked up to as a model of behaviour.

I agree that visible make up worn by a saheb-e minbar is not in good taste or form.

See above. As a servant of the farsh-e-'azaa where she did address mejalis a few Moharrams ago, you could asked women in the committee to verify Ghulam Pajntan's assertion.

I hold no brief for Tayyebeh Bokahir, as you know, but the truth is the truth.

Quote

Are you speaking from first-hand experience or are you basing your statement on hearsay? If first-hand, did you communicate directly with her first, or did you go directly to a 'secretary'?

As I have stated in a post above, when we used to arrange majalis of Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari at Lahore, she did not ask for or pre-arrange any sum of money, she did not have a 'secretary', and what amount we presented to her - which was much less than the sums mentioned by you above - was happily accepted by her.

Our subsequent experience with Khanum Razia Batool Najafi, and this year with another Qum-based scholar Ma'suma Jafri was similar.

It has become quite the "in" thing to moan about 'aalims ['and aalimahs] that they charge astronomical amounts for addressing mejalis.

I will re-iterate what I have said earlier, perhaps in this very topic.

What's it that prevents arrangers of mejalis to address the mejalis themselves? What's it that prevents people to gain 'ilm enough to be confident enough to address mejalis?

And if Shia as a community have allowed religion to become a profession as any other, then why moan and groan. Let the proficient in it charge what they will.

Quote

You have two objections against her: make-up and 'expense'. Did you protest to her directly about these objections of yours? Or did you at least stop going to her majalis to record a weaker form of protest?

Let's remember that it takes not only the sahib-e minbar but the arranger of majlis as well to make the 'hadiya' so exorbitant that it becomes out of reach of poor people to hold majalis. The arranger normally desires to have a big crowd and resultant fame that a 'big name' will bring, rather than the presence and pleasure of Syeda Zahra (salaam Ullah alaiha). Why out of hundreds of possible speakers invite only those who are 'expensive'? If we arrangers of majalis stopped this 'bidding', the 'expensive' objection would fizzle out atomatically.

Dealt with above

Quote

Same goes for the hazireen (those who attend), especially ones who feel negatively about a certain aspect. If one cannot actively protest, he/she should at least do so passively by not adding to the attendance of majalis having objectionable bases as per his/her perception.

If we are part of the willing arrangers or crowd, we lose our moral right to object.

Well said

[Abuzar]

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

Ghulam Panjtan is indeed a sister.

I stand informed and corrected. Thanks.

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

She created a topic Zanjeerzani for Women prolly last year.

As a protagonist or antagonist? If the former, she shares this viewpoint with (the former?) Mr. Imran Liaqat!

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

As for her assertion that Tayyebeh arrives at mejalis in make-up, I believe it is a misperception.

I have myself heard her in Karachi, where she addresses mejalis at Yathrib and Baqiyyatullah Trust.

She habitulally uses surma which is a sunnat, and "dandaasa" [I don't know what it is called in English] which, in regular use, imparts a dark hue to the lips and even gums.

I take your word for it. Do observe that my response above was generic, not specific to Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari.

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

As a servant of the farsh-e-'azaa where she did address mejalis a few Moharrams ago, you could asked women in the committee to verify Ghulam Pajntan's assertion.

I did before responding to the post. They include my family members as well, and still attend Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari's majalis. Their observation is similar to yours.

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

I hold no brief for Tayyebeh Bokahir, as you know, but the truth is the truth.

And I thank you for sharing it.

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

It has become quite the "in" thing to moan about 'aalims ['and aalimahs] that they charge astronomical amounts for addressing mejalis.

Yes, and this while attending such majalis and not objecting about arrangers for contracting to pay these amounts.

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

I will re-iterate what I have said earlier, perhaps in this very topic.

What's it that prevents arrangers of mejalis to address the mejalis themselves? What's it that prevents people to gain 'ilm enough to be confident enough to address mejalis?

In my case it is my meagre knowledge - despite effort - and lowly stature that prevents me from doing so.

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 04:15 PM, said:

And if Shia as a community have allowed religion to become a profession as any other, then why moan and groan. Let the proficient in it charge what they will.

A profession practised with taqwa and tawakkul I would have no objection to. But making azadari a business for profit or fame - whether by speakers or arrangers - is deplorable.

[Dhulfiqar]

... All I know ...

The Traditional (old school) Maulana's have to deal with two fronts:
1. The short bearded mullahs (i.e., the new generation of Maulanas, like the Virjis, Nakhshiwanis, Rajabalis, Mukhthar Alis, Nurudin Alis, Ghanis, etc.)

and now:
2. The women Alimas.

When the Old Mullahs found out that men were listening to T.B. speak they realized another front had just opened up hitting their wallets. So fatwas shortly started being rolling out about it being Haram to listen to a woman's voice...etc. etc. etc.

One male listener even suggested he should give the Maulanas a tape of her lecture so they can learn from her.

But competition is good. Maybe now instead of repeating the same ol' Majlises they will bring up new material.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

[Rawshni]

Abuzar, on Mar 8 2008, 12:50 PM, said:

I stand informed and corrected. Thanks.

You are most welcome.

Quote

As a protagonist or antagonist? If the former, she shares this viewpoint with (the former?) Mr. Imran Liaqat!

Neither. More out of curiosity, asking whether it was permissible for women, whether women do it, and if they do, where? My hunch is she has brothers or other male members in the family who are zanjeerzanns . . . she's still a youngster

Quote

I take your word for it. Do observe that my response above was generic, not specific to Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari.

I did before responding to the post. They include my family members as well, and still attend Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari's majalis. Their observation is similar to yours.

And I thank you for sharing it.

Whatever people say about Tayyebeh, and whatever my differences with some of the content of her mejalis, she is one of the better female speakers on the Pakistani circuit. I do not like it when people blackball others by either assuming things about them, for for things that they themselves are guilty of.

Quote

Yes, and this while attending such majalis and not objecting about arrangers for contracting to pay these amounts.

Not for the past three years, but before that I myself [even as a non-muslim] had been arranging mejalis at Aapa's Karachi place, and I can vouch, never once did a zakira name a figure to me.

Quote

In my case it is my meagre knowledge - despite effort - and lowly stature that prevents me from doing so.

You yourself once said there's a great difference between being a faqeeh and a speaker at mejlis. While reserving the right to debate the relative stature of either, at the present I will just aver that all you need is an unimpeachable grounding in Islamic history, the ability to interconnect it with the Quran, and the ability to speak effectively, and you are all set to go.

My devraani, Angeline, a girl I plucked from right here at Shiachat, spoke for the entire Ashreh at my mother in law's place last year and this year, plus may be a dozen other mejalis in the family and acquantances. This year we also "blooded in" the daughter of my husband's sister.

The audiences have been very appreciative of both the girls.

Quote

A profession practised with taqwa and tawakkul I would have no objection to. But making azadari a business for profit or fame - whether by speakers or arrangers - is deplorable.

Neither would I. It would be ideal. But as you know, very often it is that gaddamned breed known as secretaries who are more avaricious than the zakirs themselves.

I do not know for how long you have been in Lahore, and exactly how old you are. But I have it on the authority of people I know do not lie, that the owner of a Shia weekly and president of a Shia rights organization used to serve as the contact between Marhoom Hafiz Kifayat Hussain sahab 'aal Allah maqaamahu and people who wanted the Hafiz sahab to address mejalis. This man used to charge money in Hafiz sahab's name which never got to Hafiz sahab. Hafiz sahab learnt of the scam when he did not go to a mejlis he was supposed to attend due to some problem, and later on the people who had arranged the mejlis contacted him for a refund. He took them to this Shia "leader's" office and you can imagine the rest.

Dhulfiqar, on Mar 8 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

... All I know ...

The Traditional (old school) Maulana's have to deal with two fronts:
1. The short bearded mullahs (i.e., the new generation of Maulanas, like the Virjis, Nakhshiwanis, Rajabalis, Mukhthar Alis, Nurudin Alis, Ghanis, etc.)

and now:
2. The women Alimas.

When the Old Mullahs found out that men were listening to Tayyaba.Bokhari. speak they realized another front had just opened up hitting their wallets. So fatwas shortly started being rolling out about it being Haram to listen to a woman's voice...etc. etc. etc.

One male listener even suggested he should give the Maulanas a tape of her lecture so they can learn from her.

But competition is good. Maybe now instead of repeating the same ol' Majlises they will bring up new material.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

I like your take on the issue. But please don't call her by her initials. Especially since the initials stand for a pernicious disease.

Edited by Rawshni, 08 March 2008 - 05:01 PM.

[Dhulfiqar]

Rawshni, on Mar 8 2008, 09:41 PM, said:

I like your take on the issue. But please don't call her by her initials. Especially since the initials stand for a pernicious disease.

Walaikum Salaam,

I didn't realize until you told me. Hmm....

[Rawshni]

^

I have edited your quoted post in mine. You can edit yours.

[Abuzar]

Dhulfiqar, on Mar 9 2008, 02:10 AM, said:

... All I know ...

The Traditional (old school) Maulana's have to deal with two fronts:
1. The short bearded mullahs (i.e., the new generation of Maulanas, like the Virjis, Nakhshiwanis, Rajabalis, Mukhthar Alis, Nurudin Alis, Ghanis, etc.)

and now:
2. The women Alimas.

When the Old Mullahs found out that men were listening to T.B. speak they realized another front had just opened up hitting their wallets. So fatwas shortly started being rolling out about it being Haram to listen to a woman's voice...etc. etc. etc.

One male listener even suggested he should give the Maulanas a tape of her lecture so they can learn from her.

But competition is good. Maybe now instead of repeating the same ol' Majlises they will bring up new material.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

Only two objections against Syeda Tayyaba Bukhari were made on this thread - purported 'expense' and now 'make-up' - and not by mullahs - old or young, but mainly by ladies.

What you have said - and I have highlighted in red - is news to me. Would you be kind enough to identify the ones you have accused?

In fact, it was the aalima herself who, in her earlier days when we arranged her majalis and tafsir sessions at Lahore, prohibited the recording of her voice or even its transmission to males!

[Dhulfiqar]

^

What I said wasn't to be taken negatively toward the alima.

You are in Lahore? Maybe in Lahore the 'urf is different than in Umreeka. But she was recorded here. And in fact for the last Arbaeen Majlis (the day of Chelum) it was announced officially where men can sit and hear (not watch) the alima.

Wa Salaam,
Dhulfiqar

[Abuzar]

Rawshni, on Mar 9 2008, 02:41 AM, said:

Whatever people say about Tayyebeh, and whatever my differences with some of the content of her mejalis, she is one of the better female speakers on the Pakistani circuit. I do not like it when people blackball others by either assuming things about them, for for things that they themselves are guilty of.

She is indeed among the better orators that the minbar in Pakistan has seen.

As for the latter part of your statement, I would add one more thing: we should even refrain from sharing possibly negative aspects that are known to us with certainty but are not public knowledge. Again, this is a generic statement, not specifically about any one person.

Rawshni, on Mar 9 2008, 02:41 AM, said:

Not for the past three years, but before that I myself [even as a non-muslim] had been arranging mejalis at Aapa's Karachi place, and I can vouch, never once did a zakira name a figure to me.

I agree with your observation. In the more than ten years that I have been involved in arranging majalis no khateeb - male or female - has asked us for any amount, and had he/she done so, we would not have asked him/her to take the minbar.

Rawshni, on Mar 9 2008, 02:41 AM, said:

You yourself once said there's a great difference between being a faqeeh and a speaker at mejlis. While reserving the right to debate the relative stature of either, at the present I will just aver that all you need is an unimpeachable grounding in Islamic history, the ability to interconnect it with the Quran, and the ability to speak effectively, and you are all set to go.

My devraani, Angeline, a girl I plucked from right here at Shiachat, spoke for the entire Ashreh at my mother in law's place last year and this year, plus may be a dozen other mejalis in the family and acquantances. This year we also "blooded in" the daughter of my husband's sister.

The audiences have been very appreciative of both the girls.

A few years ago we realised the paucity of knowledgable lady speakers in Lahore, especially in and around Model Town. The few that are there are too busy exactly because of this. I persuaded my salhaj a few years ago to start addressing majalis. She is an intelligent, well-read and well-spoken lady whose topics are mainly related to akhlaaqiaat based on anecdotes from lives of infallibles . However, she takes a back seat when an aalima like Khanum Razia Batool is here for addressing majalis.

The 'ilmi stature of the male orators we invite is so much higher than mine that I cannot think of replacing them even for one majlis. So, as I said in an earlier post, I follow the theory of comparative advantage. They speak, and I organize the majalis.

Rawshni, on Mar 9 2008, 02:41 AM, said:

Neither would I. It would be ideal. But as you know, very often it is that gaddamned breed known as secretaries who are more avaricious than the zakirs themselves.

'Secretary' is the first sign of being too busy or having crossed 'the' line. Luckily - and intentionally - we do not deal with secretaries. with all the five speakers we invited this year, contact was direct, through e-mail, phone or face-to-face, or combination thereof.
  

Rawshni, on Mar 9 2008, 02:41 AM, said:

I do not know for how long you have been in Lahore, and exactly how old you are. But I have it on the authority of people I know do not lie, that the owner of a Shia weekly and president of a Shia rights organization used to serve as the contact between Marhoom Hafiz Kifayat Hussain sahab 'aal Allah maqaamahu and people who wanted the Hafiz sahab to address mejalis. This man used to charge money in Hafiz sahab's name which never got to Hafiz sahab. Hafiz sahab learnt of the scam when he did not go to a mejlis he was supposed to attend due to some problem, and later on the people who had arranged the mejlis contacted him for a refund. He took them to this Shia "leader's" office and you can imagine the rest.

I am not old enough to know these things first-hand, but I have it on good authority that Hafiz sahab was a person who never asked for any hadiya. This editor is known to have been a person of doubtful integrity, and its was naive of Hafiz sahab to have let him deal on his behalf.

[Abuzar]

Dhulfiqar, on Mar 9 2008, 10:11 AM, said:

^

What I said wasn't to be taken negatively toward the alima.

That's the way I understood it as well. You have, however, said that some mullahs have given fatwas against her. I don't know of any such happening. So, I had requested that the 'mullahs' be identified.

Dhulfiqar, on Mar 9 2008, 10:11 AM, said:

You are in Lahore? Maybe in Lahore the 'urf is different than in Umreeka. But she was recorded here. And in fact for the last Arbaeen Majlis (the day of Chelum) it was announced officially where men can sit and hear (not watch) the alima.

The difference is not in space but in time. As I have said in an earlier post, now her majalis in Lahore are video-filmed by a male cameraman.

My point was that the hurmat thing was her own initiation - and one on which she seems to have drastically changed her position.