69 replies to this topic

[SShah]

Salaam,

I am a shia brother, and i have been asked this question by a non-shia friend of mine, which i would like to share with you hall, in the hope of some good answers.

"Knowing Imam Ali for the brave person that they were, and as the shia say abu bakr wasn't the rightly elected caliph, dont u think Imam Ali would have raised his voice at the time opposing the caliphate of Abu Bakr? Why did Imam Ali stay quiet? And for the other thing about the event of Fadak, Umar attacking the house of Fatima... why didn't Imam Ali do anything back? Knowing Imam Ali's brave character, he would have gone to war with Umar, killed him, or atleast taught him a solid lesson."

If your answer is that Imam Ali had great patience, then that is a very very weak argument. If you're wife is being attacked by someone, and you are known to be the bravest and strongest man in the country, would you stay quiet and let it happen or teach him a lesson?

If the knowledgable brothers and sisters out there can reply with some answers, backed up with hadith/quran or any evidence i would be really grateful.

Jazakallah Khayr

[Abdaal]

The other issue here is the sahabas knew and acknowledged Imam Ali strength. Therefore, if someone knows who the strongest man in the world is then would they even dare touch him or his family ?

[Gypsy]

There is one crazy person in history called Khalid AlWalid who killed a leader of tribe and raped his wife. The only reason was because thsi man did not support the caliph- Abu Bakr. Umar AlKhattab wanted to burn down Fatima(as) house. Imam Ali(as) did not have a reputation terrorizing people. He always used non-violence and peaceful approach when it's possible to win the argument. He never fought war with civilians like the other so-called personality in Islam.

[ali00ae]

The Prophets and their successors acted according to the will of Allah Almighty. Accordingly we cannot raise any objection as to why they did not wage war, or why they adopted silence before the enemy, or why they suffered defeat.


If you study the historical facts regarding the lives of the holy prophets and their successors, you will find many similar instances of acquiescence. The Holy Qur'an has narrated some of those events. In the sura of Qamar (The Moon), the Holy Qur'an relates what the Prophet Noah said when his people rejected him: "Verily, I am overcome (by these people), so give help." (54:11)


In the sura of Maryam (Mary), the Qur'an tells us of the silence of Abraham when he sought his uncle Azar's help and received a disappointing reply: "And I will withdraw from you and what you call upon besides Allah, and I will call upon my Lord." (19:48)


So just as Abraham withdrew from the people when he did not receive support from his uncle Azar, Ali also must have withdrawn from the people and gone into seclusion.

In the sura of Qasas (The Narratives), the story about Moses running away in fear of his life has been narrated in this way: "So he went forth, fearing, awaiting, (and) he said: My Lord, deliver me from the unjust people."(28:21)


In the sura of A'raf (The Elevated Places), the Holy Qur'an tells us of Aaron's plight when Moses had left him in charge of the Bani Israel. The people immediately began to worship the golden calf and, because Aaron had no one to support him;, he remained silent. The Qur'an says: "And he (Moses) seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards him. He (Aaron) said: Son of my mother! Surely the people reckoned me weak and had well nigh slain me." (7:150)


So according to the Holy Qur'an Aaron did not draw the sword against the people. He assumed silence when they adopted Samiri's Golden Calf as the object of worship because he (Aaron) recognized that he was outnumbered. Similarly, Ali, whom the Holy Prophet pronounced to be the counterpart of Aaron was also perfectly justified in assuming patience and forbearance when he had been left alone. The Holy Imam was forcibly brought to the mosque and an open sword was put on his head to force him to swear allegiance. Later he went to the tomb of the Holy Prophet and repeated the same words which Allah Almighty has related through the tongue of Aaron. Aaron had said to Moses: "Surely the people had reckoned me weak and had well nigh slain me."

Second, Amiru'l-Mu'minin never looked to himself but was always mindful of Allah. He was completely absorbed in Allah. He resigned himself and his people to the will of Allah. Hence, his patience and forbearance in gaining his right were for Allah's sake so that there might not be discord among the Muslims and that people might not return to their previous infidelity. When Fatima's property was taken from her, she came home, depressed and dismayed. She said to Ali: "You have receded like a foetus. You have retired from the world like an accused person and have broken your hawk-like wings. Now the weak wings of a bird do not support you. This Ibn Qahafa (Abu Bakr) is forcibly snatching away from me my father's gift and my children's means of subsistence. In fact these people abused me with open ill will and railed at me." She spoke for a long time.


The Holy Imam listened to Fatima until she was silent. Then he gave her a short reply which satisfied her. He said: "O Fatima! In the matter of religion and preaching truth, I have never been inactive. Do you wish that this sacred religion remains secure and that your holy father's name is called in mosques until eternity?" She said: "Yes, that is my most ardent desire." Ali said: "Then you should be patient. Your father has given me instructions regarding this situation, and I know that I should be forbearing. Otherwise, I have such strength that I could subdue the enemy and take back your right from them. But you should know that in that case the religion would be destroyed. So, for the sake of Allah and for the security of Allah's religion, be patient. The recompense in the hereafter for you is better than your right which has been usurped."


It was for this reason that Amiru'l-Mu'minin made patience his custom. He assumed forbearance and silence for the safety of Islam. In many of his sermons he has referred to this point.

One of the divine gifts received by Ali through the Holy Prophet was a sealed book brought by Gabriel. The great scholar and historian, Allama Abu'l-Hasan Ali Bin al-Husain Mas'ud, who is respected by both sects, writes in his Isbatu'l-Wasiyya: "Gabriel and the trusted angels brought from Allah Almighty a sealed book to the Holy Prophet and said to him: 'All those present there with you except your wasi (successor) should leave so that I may give you the Kitab-e-Wasiyya (the book of the last testament).'


Then the Holy Prophet ordered all those present there to leave except Amiru'l-Mu'minin, Fatima, Hasan, and Husain. Gabriel said: 'O Prophet! Allah sends His salaam to you and says that this is the document in which He has made you a promise and has made His angels witnesses to it and that He Himself is witness to it.'


Then the Holy Prophet began to tremble and said: 'Salaam (salutation) is He, and salutation is from Him, and salutation returns to Him.'


Taking the book from Gabriel he read it and gave it to Ali. The Holy Prophet said: 'This is a promise and trust from my Lord to me. Verily, I have performed my duty and have delivered Allah's message.'


Amiru'l-Mu'minin said: 'May my mother and father sacrifice their lives for you! I also bear witness to the truth of this message. My ears, eyes, flesh, and blood bear testimony to it.'


The Holy Prophet said to Ali: 'Here is my will from the side of Allah. Accept it and be a guarantor for it before Allah. It is for me to fulfill my duty.' Ali said: 'I shall be a guarantor for it, and it is for Allah to help me.'


In this book Amiru'l-Mu'minin has been asked to fulfill the following promises:


'To be friendly with Allah's friends; to be hostile to Allah's enemies. To have patience with oppression; to patiently endure and pacify anger when his rights are usurped, when he is abused, and when he is unjustly attacked.'


The Amiru'l-Mu'minin said: 'I accept it, and I am content with it. If indignity is shown to me, if hadith are rejected, if the ordinances of the Holy Qur'an are set at naught, if the Ka'ba is razed to the ground, and if my beard is colored with the blood of my head, even then I will endure and be patient.'


After that Gabriel, Michael, and the other close angels were declared witnesses of Amiru'l-Mu'minin. Similarly, Hasan, Husain, and Fatima were also entrusted with the same responsibility. The problems and conditions that they had to face were told to each in detail. After that the testament was sealed with a raw gold stamp and given to Ali. The testament contains hadith of Allah Almighty, the hadith of the Holy Prophet, the opposition of those who oppose and change divine ordinances and all the events and calamities that occurred after the Holy Prophet.


And this is what Allah says: 'And everything have We secured in a Manifest Imam (Guide, i.e. Ali).' (36:12)"

Edited by ali00ae, 05 February 2007 - 11:36 PM.

[Bani Hashim110]

Salamualkum,
Imam Ali (A.S.) was still a divinely-appointed Imam during the time of the first three rulers, and what these rulers could take from him was the rulership (which is one of the rights of Imam) and not the position of Imamat. As for Imam Ali pledging Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, he was compelled to that since he had no choice and he was compelled to do so. We, however, never accuse the Imams of being cowards. What Imam Ali did was his duty which is similar to what Haroon the brother of Moses did as his duty.

When a Nabi (Alayhis-Salaam) passes away, the property he leaves behind is not inherited to just anyone. This fact is written in Shi’i literature . Sayyidina  Rasulullah, Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam, gave the orchard, called Fedek, to Sayyidah Fatima-tuz-Zahra (Alayhas-Salaam). For Rasulullah, Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam, would not have done something which would have been wrong. It is stated in a Hadith ash-Sharif, “What we leave behind is to become alms.” Imam Ali's reasons for not fighting at the time to restore Fadak are the same reasons  as why he didn't fight to claim his rightful throne back."Rasulullah (s) said, 'Ali when people love this world, and shall usurp inheritance what shall you do? Ali replied I shall leave them alone, and shall seek out Allah (swt), his Prophet (s) and the next world. I shall bear patience in relation to worldly problems until I meet you'. Rasulullah (s) said 'You spoke correctly, O Allah! Give 'Ali patience".
Abu Bakr loved this world and denied to Sayyida Fatima her justified right. If Hadhrat 'Ali chose to get Fadak back, preferring the matter to be resolved on the Day of Judgement, he was acting in a way that had been endorsed as correct by Rasulullah (s).

I know this is a bit long but I hope it helps.  

[Yahya2004]

To be honest,

I can remember reading in a very early account of the Fatema-Door Story that Imam Ali, Amirul Momineen grabbed Umar by the Collar and threw him to the ground and said "Oh Son of Khattab (or Saahak) were it not for me remembering the Prophet Muhammad and my promise to him, you would've known by now not to enter my house without my permission."

Any ideas which book this narration is in?

[a_shia]

SShah, on Feb 5 2007, 08:12 PM, said:

Salaam,

I am a shia brother, and i have been asked this question by a non-shia friend of mine, which i would like to share with you hall, in the hope of some good answers.

"Knowing Imam Ali for the brave person that they were, and as the shia say abu bakr wasn't the rightly elected caliph, dont u think Imam Ali would have raised his voice at the time opposing the caliphate of Abu Bakr? Why did Imam Ali stay quiet? And for the other thing about the event of Fadak, Umar attacking the house of Fatima... why didn't Imam Ali do anything back? Knowing Imam Ali's brave character, he would have gone to war with Umar, killed him, or atleast taught him a solid lesson."

If your answer is that Imam Ali had great patience, then that is a very very weak argument. If you're wife is being attacked by someone, and you are known to be the bravest and strongest man in the country, would you stay quiet and let it happen or teach him a lesson?

If the knowledgable brothers and sisters out there can reply with some answers, backed up with hadith/quran or any evidence i would be really grateful.

Jazakallah Khayr

AOA how r u bro?
the answer is simple
there were 2 options for Mola Ali(as) one is Islam and other is his rights
He(as) save islam .... couze umer abu bakar and usman they were not as open as Maviya and his son
and for saving islam Mola Ali(as) did not kill them

[Sunni_Muslim4life]

SShah, on Feb 5 2007, 08:12 PM, said:

Salaam,

I am a shia brother, and i have been asked this question by a non-shia friend of mine, which i would like to share with you hall, in the hope of some good answers.

"Knowing Imam Ali for the brave person that they were, and as the shia say abu bakr wasn't the rightly elected caliph, dont u think Imam Ali would have raised his voice at the time opposing the caliphate of Abu Bakr? Why did Imam Ali stay quiet? And for the other thing about the event of Fadak, Umar attacking the house of Fatima... why didn't Imam Ali do anything back? Knowing Imam Ali's brave character, he would have gone to war with Umar, killed him, or atleast taught him a solid lesson."

If your answer is that Imam Ali had great patience, then that is a very very weak argument. If you're wife is being attacked by someone, and you are known to be the bravest and strongest man in the country, would you stay quiet and let it happen or teach him a lesson?

If the knowledgable brothers and sisters out there can reply with some answers, backed up with hadith/quran or any evidence i would be really grateful.

Jazakallah Khayr

The bravery of Ali R.A was wellknown fact and his sword,thus may Allah be pleased with him and his sacriface for Islam.
The point is Umar ibn Khattab R.A loved ahle beyt and he respected Ali so its totally weird to say that Umar al Faruq and Abu Bakr sadiq R.A changed from Character after the death of Rasullah P.B.U.H,they became ''evil'', threaten to set fire the house of Ali R.A & Umar R.A ''killing'' the unborn baby of Fatima [May Allah be pleased with her].
If they really hated islam,they would have died as mushrikien or they would support the jews from Medina [what Abdullah ibn Ubai used to do].

What i know is,Ali R.A would not watch like a coward if someone[muslim/nonmuslim]threatens to set fire his house and this same person kills his unborn baby.



W.Salaam

[Ali Hassan]

SShah, on Feb 6 2007, 06:12 AM, said:

Salaam,

I am a shia brother, and i have been asked this question by a non-shia friend of mine, which i would like to share with you hall, in the hope of some good answers.

"Knowing Imam Ali for the brave person that they were, and as the shia say abu bakr wasn't the rightly elected caliph, dont u think Imam Ali would have raised his voice at the time opposing the caliphate of Abu Bakr? Why did Imam Ali stay quiet? And for the other thing about the event of Fadak, Umar attacking the house of Fatima... why didn't Imam Ali do anything back? Knowing Imam Ali's brave character, he would have gone to war with Umar, killed him, or atleast taught him a solid lesson."

If your answer is that Imam Ali had great patience, then that is a very very weak argument. If you're wife is being attacked by someone, and you are known to be the bravest and strongest man in the country, would you stay quiet and let it happen or teach him a lesson?

If the knowledgable brothers and sisters out there can reply with some answers, backed up with hadith/quran or any evidence i would be really grateful.

Jazakallah Khayr

these are fabricated stories without base.
this hadeeth , a mutawatir, is more than enough to answer these arguments

Sahih Muslim:
Book 031, Number 5885:
Ibn Abu Mulaika reported: I heard Ibn 'Abbas as saying: Wlien 'Umar b. Khatab was placed in the coffin the people gathered around him. They praised him and supplicated for him before the bier was lifted up, and I was one amongst them.Nothing attracted my attention but a person who gripped my shoulder from behind. I saw towards him and found that he was 'Ali ibne Abi Talib. He invoked Allah's mercy upon 'Umar and said: You have left none behind you (whose) deeds (are so enviable) that I love to meet Allah with them. By Allah, I hoped that Allah would keep you and your two associates together. I had often heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I came and there came too Abu Bakr and 'Umar; I entered and there entered too Abu Bakr and 'Umar; I went out and there went out too Abu Bakr and 'Umar, and I hope and think that Allah will keep you along with them.


see what imam Ali   said about Umar Farooque

sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 57, Number 34:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

When (the dead body of) 'Umar was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away, and I was amongst them. Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was 'Ali bin Abi Talib. 'Ali invoked Allah's Mercy for 'Umar and said, "O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. By Allah! I always thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophet saying, 'I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went out."'

Edited by Ali Hassan, 06 February 2007 - 01:38 PM.

[Link]

The same reason why Hussain sacrificed his family . For Islam.  The Holy Chosen Family sacrifice everything for Islam. May God bless them.

[SShah]

ali00ae, on Feb 5 2007, 11:33 PM, said:

It was for this reason that Amiru'l-Mu'minin made patience his custom. He assumed forbearance and silence for the safety of Islam. In many of his sermons he has referred to this point.

Link, on Feb 6 2007, 01:27 PM, said:

The same reason why Hussain sacrificed his family . For Islam. The Holy Chosen Family sacrifice everything for Islam. May God bless them.

I was expecting these answers, but for some reason i don't feel convinced that 'patience' is the answer, because logic tells me that if someone is insulting/attacking your wife - be it any wife, but in this case it's the daughter of the Prophet! No ordinary lady. How can you stay quiet? Someone in the ahlul bayt must have aired their voice or did everyone exercise the same levels of patience as Imam Ali ?

Imam Ali remained patient for the benefit of Islam is another point raised here... but how does being patient in a situation like this benefit Islam, when you're allowing you're companions attack and insult your wife, who is none other than the daughter of the Prophet .  

Please explain.

[Link]

Imam  Ali said once on the line that if a the Romans would attack the muslims now he would submit to the authority of Mauwiya (LA).

A civil war - then - would put Islam in danger, critical danger.

Therefore Imam Ali excercised patience and restraint.

[Sunni_Muslim4life]

Link, on Feb 6 2007, 02:08 PM, said:

Imam  Ali said once on the line that if a the Romans would attack the muslims now he would submit to the authority of Mauwiya (LA).

A civil war - then - would put Islam in danger, critical danger.

Therefore Imam Ali excercised patience and restraint.

What i understand  now from shia is that the three 'sunni' Caliphats are according to shia_muslims ''munafiqeen'' so they are worse than romans[Christians].I think from this way of understanding,Ali R.A had the right to kill Umar R.A & Abu Bakr R.A[''Munafiqeen] because they attacked his house[threaten] and they killed his unborn son.

W.Salaam

[Logic]

I suggest you contact bro "Noorfatima" he has posted quite a few authentic refrences of Umar burning down the house of Fatima (A.S). I had them saved but due to re-formatting i lost the links.

As for your question
Islam was in its initial stages and in shock due to the death of Prophet (Saww). He didnt want to fight at that time and destroy the message.

Quote

was expecting these answers, but for some reason i don't feel convinced that 'patience' is the answer, because logic tells me that if someone is insulting/attacking your wife - be it any wife, but in this case it's the daughter of the Prophet! No ordinary lady. How can you stay quiet? Someone in the ahlul bayt must have aired their voice or did everyone exercise the same levels of patience as Imam Ali as.gif?

Let me turn this around a lil. What kind of companions are these that attack the daughter of the Prophet (Saww)? Where were all these companions at the time of the Prophet (Saww) death?

Did any of these companion stand up for Fatima (A.S) when she was robbed of her inheritence?

[Aliya]

Just a couple points.

1. We see over and over again that Ali sacrificed over and over for UNITY of the ummah, while others sought to create fitna and division.

2. can ANYONE show where Ali acted EVER out of PERSONAL anger, hurt, etc.? In fact, I do recall an incident where a man he was going to kill spit on him . He walked away, and came back to kill the man ONLY when he was sure he was killing ONLY for the sake of Allah (SWT), and NOT his personal feelings.

In light of the above, I don't think it's ANY wonder why Ali sought the course of patience and restraint for the pleasure of Allah (SWT) and for sake of unity

[Gypsy]

Sunni_Muslim4life, on Feb 6 2007, 02:31 PM, said:

What i understand  now from shia is that the three 'sunni' Caliphats are according to shia_muslims ''munafiqeen'' so they are worse than romans[Christians].I think from this way of understanding,Ali R.A had the right to kill Umar R.A & Abu Bakr R.A[''Munafiqeen] because they attacked his house[threaten] and they killed his unborn son.

W.Salaam

Let me answer you. Why didn't the caliph Abu Bakar punished Khalid Al Walid who killed and raped a woman? He didnt. He did not punished Khalid AlWalid, he did not punished Umar Al Khattab, he did not punished Ayesha who usurped Prophet house.

Why didnt Abu bakr implement Islamic laws??!

[LoveImamAli]

Aliya, on Feb 7 2007, 07:28 AM, said:

Just a couple points.

1. We see over and over again that Ali sacrificed over and over for UNITY of the ummah, while others sought to create fitna and division.

2. can ANYONE show where Ali acted EVER out of PERSONAL anger, hurt, etc.? In fact, I do recall an incident where a man he was going to kill spit on him . He walked away, and came back to kill the man ONLY when he was sure he was killing ONLY for the sake of Allah (SWT), and NOT his personal feelings.

In light of the above, I don't think it's ANY wonder why Ali sought the course of patience and restraint for the pleasure of Allah (SWT) and for sake of unity

Excellent point.

If Imam Ali would have done anything for personal gains, he could have done so much to attain name, fame, material wealth etc as other Caliphs did.

The point is that he sacrificed everything from his birth to death for and always thought about Islam.

That is why we find so many sayings in the Nahjul Balaga in which Imam Ali spoke out against man's desires and attaining worldly gains.

[livingshaheed]

Khalid Ibn Waleed is one the greatest Mujahids from amongst the Mujahideen.  It is he whom the Prophet called the "Sword of Allah."  Abu Bakr was asked by Umar to to take Khalid off of the leadership of the army but Abu Bakr replied, "How can I sheath a Sword which was unsheathed by Allah and His Messenger."

Zareen you slander Khalid I. Waleed, he didnt rape anybody!  In the battle of Ridda he killed one of the chiefs of the anti-Muslim forces and subsequently married his wife.  
Here is a site from the Sunni side giving an explanation of his life,

http://www.swordofallah.com/

Ali named his sons after Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman.  He loved them and they loved him.  They were kindred spirits.  Abu Bakr was As'Siddiq, known as the truthful one.  He brought many people into Islam and was one of the earliest to accept the Faith.  In Sura Tawba he mentioned as the 'companion' of the Prophet ,


YUSUFALI: If ye help not (your leader), (it is no matter): for Allah did indeed help him, when the Unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion; they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion, "Have no fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights: for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. (Quran,9;40)

[Aliya]

jeez, how many points that have ALREADY BEEN REFUTED OVER AND OVER can you squeeze into one post, Living?

if the search feature was working you could find the relevant threads. Insha'Allah someone can bring forth the threads, as I can't right now.

[Yousif]

salam

you can find an answer in the other thread about this same issue i quoted ayatullah mohamed sanads answer on the attack of Fatima(as)

and to further show that Imam ALi(As) never did anything out of his anger , refer sayed mahdi modaressi lecture 2 this muharam

he speaks of how Imam was in a one and one fight where his enemy (cant remember the name sorry) spat on him , so Imam left the circle for a second then went back in , went back out again said Allahu Akbar and came back in and killed the enemy when his companions asked why did you do so , he said He never kills any one out of his own anger , so he left the circle to kool down , and came back in as he only kills/fights in the path of Allah

the above is vague for exact wording refer to the lecture

[Abdaal]

Link, on Feb 6 2007, 02:08 PM, said:

Imam  Ali said once on the line that if a the Romans would attack the muslims now he would submit to the authority of Mauwiya (LA).

A civil war - then - would put Islam in danger, critical danger.

Therefore Imam Ali excercised patience and restraint.

What is source behind that?  Imam Ali's brother Jafar bin Abi Talib fought an entire Romans army therefore, the saying above sounds fabricated.

[Link]

Abdaal, on Feb 6 2007, 10:02 PM, said:

What is source behind that?  Imam Ali's brother Jafar bin Abi Talib fought an entire Romans army therefore, the saying above sounds fabricated.

the companion of Sulaiman is able to bring the throne in a second, surely Harun had a knowledge and power he could have killed all his enemies, but they don't always use their mujazat. Imam Ali , Jaffar Al-Tayyar , I'm sure Allah (Swt) permitted them mujazat at times, but not to the extent that they do super human things in all events. Else how can we follow their example ? How can we follow Ali example if he used his power to kill all his enemies?  We too sacifice things for Islam, we do things for unity for the sake of Islam, like in Iran - the cursing of Abu Baker and Ummar being out lawed, this is for Islam, that's not a good comparison, but I'm saying, Ahlulbayt showed us to sacrifice everything for Islam,  if they used their powers - and sometines they can to guide people - to do things -but if they used their powers to overthrow ummayads - the whole message of stuggle against injustice, patience in the way of God, perseving knowing at the end the actions will take fruit and ultimate victory will take place (ie. Imam Zaman being victorious through efforts and patience of Ahlulbayt and their followers) - all this would not have been there - why did Prophet Isa watch his cousin Yahya die and not avenge him?  Surely he had powers to bring the dead to life, why didn't he bring a whole army of dead and get revenge?  

It's not logical to think that way.

We conclude the interest of Islam has precedence over all things, this is why WF supporters, we give an authority to the WF that much people think is too much, that fact is, this "total" (it's not totat but not absolute because he can be removed) authority is only given to him to perform his duty to defend Islam's interests, because Islam always comes first.

Edited by Link, 06 February 2007 - 10:31 PM.

[karbalah]

• SShah, on Feb 6 2007, 01:58 PM, said:

  I was expecting these answers, but for some reason i don't feel convinced that 'patience' is the answer, because logic tells me that if someone is insulting/attacking your wife - be it any wife, but in this case it's the daughter of the Prophet! No ordinary lady. How can you stay quiet? Someone in the ahlul bayt must have aired their voice or did everyone exercise the same levels of patience as Imam Ali ?
  
  Imam Ali remained patient for the benefit of Islam is another point raised here... but how does being patient in a situation like this benefit Islam, when you're allowing you're companions attack and insult your wife, who is none other than the daughter of the Prophet .
  
  Please explain.
  Al salam alaikum brothers and sisters, I have read so many threads like this before,, and it seems we all agree that we should discuss with non emotional rational manner, and the more knowledge we have the more power we have to convince our point, had I seen this thread before last week, I would have emotionally and hastily answered: Imam Ali did what he did to save Islam from being masacared by ,, and anyone with ,,,
  anyways,,somthing like that , but I was fortunate to view on tv how one of our great scolars answered one viewer to that same question,very simple:
  1)why did IMAM Alie sa let his rights go and not fight ,go into war?
  easy: because IMAM alie saa was already the Imam ruler of 90%of muslims at that time including OMAR and ABUKAR,,this great scolar went on to explaim (nice calm way) ,,,imam Ali saa was already an imam to people ,,Ahel el Biet never seeked power, or to rule,,or caliphate,,we get carried away sometimes and forget that the main idea of Imamah is spiritual leader to carry on sunna al rassoul saaw and for people to seek , ask, take refuge, seek help,seek ,,,,knowledge and wisdom,,,and NO ONE can dispute that Imam ALi and the rest Of Ahel el biet saa had that,,they had their followers,, they GOT to people,,they REACHED,,,and they had passed on the sunna,,to the point that,,,even if sunna dispute the 12ers imam saa so wierd,,if you look at each PERIOD OF EACH IMAM,,you will find them mentioned in sunni books in hadith of two
  They have in their books,hadiths on Imam ridah saa
  they have "lowla sentan la halak el nouman",,if it was not for the two years then abi hanifa would have been lost :two years studied Imam Sadek saa
  They have Dua for Imam Sajad :Godhow do I ask you and you are you,,and you answer me and I am me,,,"somthing close"(Iwas shocked to heard it from sunni shiekh on dbai tv in arabic askin people to read it for their needs)
  They shone,,they stood out,,they were Imams,,,the guide of millions,,they did not need the power,the chair,,to be called caliphate,,this was never their intention.
  Only when people started to drift did sayed el shuhada,,saa give a wake up call.
  
  so what are we arguing about why will we draw blood,end lives?
  their nour "light" always shone,,,can any sunni here say they never heard of :
  
• Imam Hassan Al-Mujtaba(as)
  
• Imam Hussein Al-Shaheed(as)
  
• Imam Zain Al-Abdeen Al-Shujjad(as)
  
• Imam Mohammed Al-Bakir(as)
  
• Imam Jaffar Al-Sadiq(as)
  
• Imam Musa Al-Kathum(as)
  
• Imam Ali Al-Reda(as)
  
• Imam Mohammed Al-Jawad(as)
  
• Imam Ali Al-Hadi(as)
  
• Imam Hassan Al-Askari(as)
  
• Imam Mehdi Al-Muntadar(as)
  come on guys,,,I am sure they were mentioned in a sunni hadith or two here and there,,,,?

Edited by karbalah, 06 February 2007 - 11:12 PM.

[Abdaal]

Link, on Feb 6 2007, 10:17 PM, said:

It's not logical to think that way.

We conclude the interest of Islam has precedence over all things, this is why WF supporters, we give an authority to the WF that much people think is too much, that fact is, this "total" (it's not totat but not absolute because he can be removed) authority is only given to him to perform his duty to defend Islam's interests, because Islam always comes first.

I am asking you to authenticate that saying of Imam Ali handing power over to Muawiyah if the Romans attacked.  According to  history Muawiyah had  introjected  Ahadiths and forged others, while he also allowed the Jews and Christians to introject their input in them, and putting them at the forefront, while silencing pious Sahaba and tabi'in. Therefore to me what you said above does not make any sense.

Edited by Abdaal, 07 February 2007 - 09:12 PM.

[livingshaheed]

karbalah, on Feb 7 2007, 12:09 AM, said:

• 
  Al salam alaikum brothers and sisters, I have read so many threads like this before,, and it seems we all agree that we should discuss with non emotional rational manner, and the more knowledge we have the more power we have to convince our point, had I seen this thread before last week, I would have emotionally and hastily answered: Imam Ali did what he did to save Islam from being masacared by ,, and anyone with ,,,
  anyways,,somthing like that , but I was fortunate to view on tv how one of our great scolars answered one viewer to that same question,very simple:
  1)why did IMAM Alie sa let his rights go and not fight ,go into war?
  easy: because IMAM alie saa was already the Imam ruler of 90%of muslims at that time including OMAR and ABUKAR,,this great scolar went on to explaim (nice calm way) ,,,imam Ali saa was already an imam to people ,,Ahel el Biet never seeked power, or to rule,,or caliphate,,we get carried away sometimes and forget that the main idea of Imamah is spiritual leader to carry on sunna al rassoul saaw and for people to seek , ask, take refuge, seek help,seek ,,,,knowledge and wisdom,,,and NO ONE can dispute that Imam ALi and the rest Of Ahel el biet saa had that,,they had their followers,, they GOT to people,,they REACHED,,,and they had passed on the sunna,,to the point that,,,even if sunna dispute the 12ers imam saa so wierd,,if you look at each PERIOD OF EACH IMAM,,you will find them mentioned in sunni books in hadith of two
  They have in their books,hadiths on Imam ridah saa
  they have "lowla sentan la halak el nouman",,if it was not for the two years then abi hanifa would have been lost :two years studied Imam Sadek saa
  They have Dua for Imam Sajad :Godhow do I ask you and you are you,,and you answer me and I am me,,,"somthing close"(Iwas shocked to heard it from sunni shiekh on dbai tv in arabic askin people to read it for their needs)
  They shone,,they stood out,,they were Imams,,,the guide of millions,,they did not need the power,the chair,,to be called caliphate,,this was never their intention.
  Only when people started to drift did sayed el shuhada,,saa give a wake up call.
  
  so what are we arguing about why will we draw blood,end lives?
  their nour "light" always shone,,,can any sunni here say they never heard of :
  
• Imam Hassan Al-Mujtaba(as)
  
• Imam Hussein Al-Shaheed(as)
  
• Imam Zain Al-Abdeen Al-Shujjad(as)
  
• Imam Mohammed Al-Bakir(as)
  
• Imam Jaffar Al-Sadiq(as)
  
• Imam Musa Al-Kathum(as)
  
• Imam Ali Al-Reda(as)
  
• Imam Mohammed Al-Jawad(as)
  
• Imam Ali Al-Hadi(as)
  
• Imam Hassan Al-Askari(as)
  
• <a href="http://home3.swipnet...5053/mehdi.htm" target="_blank">Imam Mehdi Al-Muntadar(as)
  </a>come on guys,,,I am sure they were mentioned in a sunni hadith or two here and there,,,,?

All of those Imams you mentioned are considered by Sunnis to be from the leaders of the Muslims, and the scholars of the deen.  In fact Sunnis consider them to be from Ahl-Sunna wa Jama3a, i.e. they are Sunnis themselves.  We do not consider them to be infallible, but mere human beings and we do not consider them on the level of the Prophets or Messengers.