110 replies to this topic

[GHULAAM E ABBAS]

Ayatollah_X, on Sep 16 2003, 11:48 PM, said:

No he could not read or write...Most people during that time did not.  Reading was not required...this was before street signs, computers, mass libraries, book companies etc etc. The ability to read was not needed for him.  Generally during those times only the wealthy knew how to read.  And our Holy Prophet(pbuh) was not born of wealth.  Try studying about Old Arabia, from a non-islamic viewpoint & you could learn alot more about Islam.

How come Shar ul Alim was not able to read and right?
If this come to your mind because muslims can not identified any teacher for him, same way our fellow muslims believe that his heart was taken out and cleaned and that story very famous in sunni muslims.
They are nothing more to disgrace the prophet ............................

[navidkhan]

Dear All



I believe the confusion has arisen from the word "Ummeeyyoon" which can be translated as "the Unlettered (people)".  The word is used in the second verse of Sura Al Jumu'ah.

"Huvallazee ba'atha fil ummeeyyoona Rasoolanminhum yatloo laiahe ayaatehee wa yuzakkeehim, wa yoallamaohumul kitaba wal hikmata, wa in kaanoo min qablo lafee DhalaalinmObeen

62: 2. HE it is Who has raised among the unlettered people a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them HIS Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and Wisdom though before that they were in manifest error;


In this verse the word Ummee (Pleural Ummeeyyeen) has been mostly translated as unlettered people.  The reason for this was that the Arabs had a wonderful memory and were very proud of it.  They frowned and looked down upon scribes and felt that it was below their dignity to write down things which they could easily remember.  In this vers of Sura Jumu'ah, the Arabs are called Ummeeyyoon as a people.  The Holy prophet has been raised amongst them, it does not necessarily follow that he too is an Ummee.

Another reason for using the word Ummee may be related to Makkah.  This city was known as the Ummul quraa or  "the Mother of Cities".  The Makkans were also known as Ummees because they lived in the Mother of the Cities . (Ummeee also meens Mother in Arabic).

I beleieve strongly that the Holy prophet was not Illiterate.  He knew how to read and also to write.  At the time of the writing of the Treaty  of Hudaibiyah, it is reported that he took the parchment on which it was written, from Hazrat Ali and struck out the words " MUhammad the Messenger of Allah" and instead wrote down "Muhammad the son of Abdullah".

wa salam

Navidul Haq Khan

[Hajar]

YouthOfAli, on Sep 18 2003, 02:51 PM, said:

Quote

Study Arabia before Islam. Then answer this post, its obvious you know nothing of Arabia or Arab culture Pre-Islam. To even make a statement like this shows you have 0 information on the subject. Not knowing is not a sin...lying is.

Arabia before Islam was full of poets. It seems you know jack all about Pre Islam Arabs. Why do you think they were surprised by the Qur'an? For Allah to reveal the aya is Surah Yaseen, that Qur'an is NOT poetry. Poems of the great Arabs hung in Kaba.

READ SOME HISTORY.

Salaam alaikum,

The Arab society was an oral society.  Reading and writing was not common.  The Prophet ordered those who could read to teach those who couldn't.  After that it was common for them to read and write.

There isn't a unanimous opinion that the Prophet could read and write, before his mission, even among Shia scholars.  For example, in the book The Message (chapter 7) by Ayatullah Ja'far Subhani, the author says the following:

Quote

1. The historians are unanimous that Muhammad was illiterate and had not learnt reading and writing.

  

Another example is found in The Revealer, The Messenger, The Message by  
(Martyr) Mohammad Baqir as-Sadr.

http://www.al-islam.org/revealer/9.htm

Quote

All this led to deep social conflicts, struggle and senseless, purposeless raids. The country in which this apostle grew up knew no form of government except that which tribal allegiances had dictated. The level of productive energy and the economic circumstances contributed nothing to distinguish the Hijaz from the most backward areas of the world at the time. Even reading and writing, which are the simplest rudiments of education, were rare in that environment, where society in general was an illiterate one.

It Is He who has sent to the unlettered people' an apostle from among themselves, reciting to them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they were before in manifest error. (Qur'an, 62:2)

The Prophet was, from this point of view, a typical person. He did not read or write before his apostleship, nor did he receive any formal or informal education.
You did not recite before it (the Qur'an) any other scriptures, nor did you inscribe it with your right hand; otherwise the falsifiers would surely have doubted. (Qur'an, 29:48)

From Mohammad Jawad Chirri

http://www.al-islam....quiries/13.html

Quote

This prediction was actually the opposite of what was humanly expected. The Qur'an was introduced by a prophet who was unschooled and unable to read or write. He introduced it in a language of an illiterate nation. The Arabs at the time of the Prophet did not have a hundred readers in a million. In addition to this, the overwhelming majority of that nation was standing against the Prophet and his book, and so was the rest of the world. Under these circumstances, such a book was expected to perish and disappear. The chances of its continuity for so many generations were very slim.

The Unschooled Prophet by  
(Martyr) Murtadha Mutahhari

Quote

One of the highlights in the life of the great Prophet Muhammad (SA) is the fact that he was untrained and unschooled (ie, he did not attend any school). He had not been trained by any teacher and neither he had acquainted himself with any written work.

No historian, Muslim or non-Muslim, can be found who would claim that the Prophet (SA) had been taught to read or write by anyone in his childhood or youth, let alone during his old age, which was the time of his mission. No one has ever either indicated an instance of the Prophet (SA) having read or written a line.

The Arabs, particularly those from Hijaz, were generally unlettered during that period, and those of them who could read and write were very well-known and very few in number. It would, as a rule, be impossible for a man to learn this skill under such conditions and not be well-known for this virtue among the people.

WaSalaam, Hajar

[Socrates]

Quote

Wow...there were a few poets... This still does not change the fact that the Prophet(saw) could not read or write. Sorry Shia...once again you are incorrect...How does it feel to be christians hiding under the gaze of islam? This is kafrchat at its best. i invite you all to www.spubs.com

I have no time to waste with jahils like you.

Alhamdolillah I don't have ur orange bearded wahhabi mullahs Islam.

I have the maktab of Ahlul BAyt . We are kafirs, go away and spew ur rubbish somewhere else.

Maybe ur prophet was illiterate, MY PROPHET DEFINITELY WELL WASN'T.

Quote

He did not read or write before his apostleship, nor did he receive any formal or informal education.

Quote

One of the highlights in the life of the great Prophet Muhammad (SA) is the fact that he was untrained and unschooled (ie, he did not attend any school). He had not been trained by any teacher and neither he had acquainted himself with any written work.

No historian, Muslim or non-Muslim, can be found who would claim that the Prophet (SA) had been taught to read or write by anyone in his childhood or youth, let alone during his old age, which was the time of his mission. No one has ever either indicated an instance of the Prophet (SA) having read or written a line.

Just because he didnt doesn't mean he couldn't.

Edited by YouthOfAli, 28 September 2003 - 03:35 AM.

[Peer]

YouthOfAli, on Sep 26 2003, 08:40 PM, said:

Just because he didnt doesn't mean he couldn't.

These exact words were the words of Sayyid Aqeel Gharavi which he used somewhere in his speech last Muharram   [Great men think alike?]

Wa'Salam
Ali

Edited by Peer Syed Sahib, 26 September 2003 - 07:42 PM.

[Hajar]

Quote

Just because he didnt doesn't mean he couldn't.

Salaam alaikum,

Apparantly everyone seems to think this is some kind of insult.  But the Scholars who hold this opinion, believe that it was proof of his Message.  He could not have read about other religions and written the Quran himself.  Some Scholars believe he could read and write later, after his mission began.  But that before that time, he couldn't.

WaSalaam, Hajar

[Socrates]

Quote

Apparantly everyone seems to think this is some kind of insult. But the Scholars who hold this opinion, believe that it was proof of his Message. He could not have read about other religions and written the Quran himself. Some Scholars believe he could read and write later, after his mission began. But that before that time, he couldn't.

Sister,

My logic fails me could you please help me here:

1. Rasoolullah - the greatest creation on earth - could not read or write.

2. I can read and write.

C: What does that make me?

It doesnt make sense, please explain.

[Bahadur Ali]

I read that in the same way that Mary   had to be a virgin to receive Jesus   , the Prophet pbuh  had to be illiterate so that the revelation would not be tinged or modified by previously acquired knowledge.

[El-hage]

why are u ppl still arguing about this
this is the Quran:
[Shakir 96:1] Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

[Shakir 96:2] He created man from a clot.


[Shakir 96:3] Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,


[Shakir 96:4] Who taught (to write) with the pen

[Shakir 96:5] Taught man what he knew not.

[Shakir 96:6] Nay! man is most surely inordinate,

[Shakir 96:7] Because he sees himself free from want.

now if i read any more posts on this thread abouth this im gonna shoot someone

[El-hage]

why are u ppl still arguing about this
this is the Quran:
[Shakir 96:1] Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

[Shakir 96:2] He created man from a clot.


[Shakir 96:3] Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,


[Shakir 96:4] Who taught (to write) with the pen

[Shakir 96:5] Taught man what he knew not.

[Shakir 96:6] Nay! man is most surely inordinate,

[Shakir 96:7] Because he sees himself free from want.

now if i read any more posts on this thread abouth this im gonna shoot someone

[ResurgencE]

Quote

[Shakir 96:2] He created man from a clot.

Incorrect.

[Hajar]

Truepath123, on Sep 27 2003, 11:37 PM, said:

Sallamu Allkuim,

To be honest I always thought he was illiterate, that's what I was taught anyway I guess he's ,not since all these proofs make  sence Also I was thinking about how before he died,  he ask for a piece of paper and a pen to write something so his  "ummah" would not be led astray.  So  obviously he's not illiterate.    

-Peace
Samantha

Salaam alaikum,

But does that hadith prove that he himself was going to write anything?  Or was he asking for pen and paper so his scribe could write what he dictated?

WaSalaam, Hajar

[Hajar]

El-hage, on Sep 28 2003, 03:23 AM, said:

why are u ppl still arguing about this
this is the Quran:
[Shakir 96:1] Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

[Shakir 96:2] He created man from a clot.


[Shakir 96:3] Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,


[Shakir 96:4] Who taught (to write) with the pen

[Shakir 96:5] Taught man what he knew not.

[Shakir 96:6] Nay! man is most surely inordinate,

[Shakir 96:7] Because he sees himself free from want.

now if i read any more posts on this thread abouth this im gonna shoot someone

Salaam alaikum,

The word iqra doesn't just mean read.  It also means recite or proclaim.  

WaSalaam, Hajar

[wilayah]

But does that hadith prove that he himself was going to write anything?  Or was he asking for pen and paper so his scribe could write what he dictated?

WaSalaam, Hajar [/QUOTE]
  

The Prophet said, "Bring ME  ink and paper so that I MAY WRITE for you... (li'aktub lakum)

Edited by wilayah, 14 November 2003 - 09:03 AM.

[kisafie1]

bahadar, on Sep 27 2003, 06:43 AM, said:

I read that in the same way that Mary   had to be a virgin to receive Jesus   , the Prophet pbuh  had to be illiterate so that the revelation would not be tinged or modified by previously acquired knowledge.

To have Jesus born from a virgin woman does not make him less than us.

To have our Prophet SAW not know how to read makes him less than us.

How can this be possible when he has been taught everything else in this world, and not reading and writing which is understandable even by 4 year olds today.

It is stupid to belive that we are greater than our Prophet in any way.  Why should I follow a man who claims to be less then me?  I wouldn't.  It is not logical.

[Ruh.Mujarad]

Hal Kana Al Nabiyu Umiyan ? ( Was the Prophet  pbuh  illeterate ? )

Proofs from the hadith that the Prophet  pbuh  knew how to read and write :

1.  Al-Saduq narrated with sanad from Jaafar Bin Muhammad Al-Sufi From Abi Jaafar Al Jawad ( as ) :

( I said : O Son of Allah's apostle, Why was the Prophet named al Ummi ? )
( He said : What do the people say about this ? )
( I said : They say that : He was named Ummi because he didn't know how to write )
( He ( as ) said : They LIED !! MAY Allah'S CURSE BE UPON THEM !! Allah ( swt ) says : 2. It is He Who has sent amongst the "Ummiyeena" a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-  ( 64:2 ) How would he teacht them what He couldn't do ? and i swear to Allah that the Prophet  pbuh  knew how to read and write with 72 languages ( or 73 ) and he was named Ummi because he was from Ahlu Makkah, and Makkah is from the mother of the Qura ( ummal Qura ) and thats in : "لتنذر ام القرى و من حملها" [1]

2. Al Sha'abi narrated  that He  pbuh  read "sahifat La'eena bin Hasan ( not hassan ) and told us wut it contained. [2]

3.  From Abdulrahmn Bin Hajaj he said : Abu Abdillah ( as ) said : The Prophet  pbuh  used to read and write, and read wut he did not write. [3]

4.  From Al Sha'abi that he said : The Prophet  pbuh  did not die until he wrote.[4]

5.  Al Suyudi has got from Abi Al Sheikh from the way of Majalid, he said : Awn Ibn Abdillah bin utba told me from his father that : The Prophet did not die until he read and wrote. So i told that to Al Sha'abi and he said : Sadaqt ( you have spoken the truth ), i heard our friends saying that.[5]

----------------------------

[1] Alal Al-Sharaei'e ( 3alal Al-Sharayi3 ) pg 123 and Al Bihar volume 16 page 132 and Basaeir ( Basa2er ) Al Darajat pg 245, Al Burhan ( Tafsir ) volume 332, Nour Al Thaqalayn volume 2 pg 78 and volume 5 pg 322 and Ma'ani Al Akhbar Wal Ikhtisas.

[2] Al Mafsal Fi Tareekh Al 3arab Qabl Al Islam volume 8 pg 98 from Tafseer Al-Naqash.

[3] Al Bihar volume 16 pg 134, Base'r ( Basa2er ) Al-Darajat pg 247, Al-Burhan volume 4 pg 333, Nour Al Thaqalayn volume 5 pg 322.

[4]Al Jame'e ( jame3 ) Li Ahkam Al Qura'an volume 13 pg 352, Al Taratib Al-Idariya volume 1 pg 173, Al Bihar volume 16 pg 135.

[5]Al Dar Al Manthour volume 3 pg 131

I have more but this is enough proof Insha'Allah to prove that the Prophet  pbuh  knew how to read and write.

Walhamdulillah.



- 3abdulrahman Chirri [ 2al 3amili ] -

Edited by Imami_ali, 14 November 2003 - 12:46 PM.

[Ruh.Mujarad]

If the Hadeeths didn't make sense ... plz tell me, cause i translated them from arabic to english ( it was hard ).

and sorry about the verse [1] ..i couldn't get it in english, cause i don't really know where it is.



- 3abdulrahman Chirri [ 2al 3amili ] -

Edited by Imami_ali, 14 November 2003 - 12:50 PM.

[Ruh.Mujarad]

oh ya ... one more thing, this is not a matter of voting or opinions, it is based on proof from the Quran and the Sunnah, and from there, we get to an answer, not from what people think and vote for.



- 3abdulrahman Chirri [ 2al 3amili ] -

[Ruh.Mujarad]

Ummm... why is it that whenever i post somethin, everythin goes quiet    ? weird    is it somethin that i say or wut ?

Anywayz ... i guess no one else has anything to say ... so can someone come up with a conclusion ?



- 3abdulrahman Chirri [ 2al 3amili ] -

[vangof]

let me put logic to this post thanks to all shia brothers and sister for the kind efforts to bring the hadith and quran in to it


i am going to look at it form a logic point


so here what i have to say


1- The Quran was transmitted to us through the prophet Mohammed’s own lips over a period of 23 years. Is it conceivable that the man who was in contact with God’s words and who was careful to have them written down and copied never bothered to learn to read what he was having written?

2- The prophet Mohammed was reputed to be a skilful tradesman, having done some successful enterprises for his first wife “Khadija”. Any student of history knows that numbers as we know them weren’t developed until decades after the prophet’s death. All trade was done with letters having numeric values (A=1, B=2, G=3, D=4, H=5, etc..). How could the prophet be a successful trader without knowing the letters?


Although the above questions may seem obvious to any rationale human being, they do not appear so to those who have engulfed themselves in fabricated tales where truth and deception mix. The case that Islamic scholars use to prove that the prophet Mohammed was illiterate is the use of the word “Ummy” in the Quran when referring to the prophet. The scholars have said that “Ummy” means “Illiterate” and that God is the one who supports this story


Let us look at ALL the verses in the Quran which use the word “Ummy”:

“…and tell those who have received the scriptures and the Ummien have you submitted?…” (3/20)

“And from the people of the scriptures are those whom if you entrust him with an ounce he will return it to you, and those whom if you entrust him with a Dinar he will not return it to you unless you are persistent, that is because they said: We have no obligation to the Ummien, and they say upon God falsehood while they are fully aware“(3/75)
He is the One Who sent to the Ummien a messenger from amongst them…” (62/2)

and so on and forth

For the sake of clarity I have kept the word “Ummy” in its original form without translating it so the reader may draw his/her own conclusions.

The Arabs of Mecca were very well known for their strength in poetry and their deep grasp of the Arabic language. These people were neither Jews nor Christians, but they believed that they followed the religion of Abraham.

Since the Arab’s were never recipients of any heavenly scripture then they could be correctly described as “Gentiles”, and since the prophet Mohammed was raised from amongst the Arabs then he too was a “Gentile” before receiving the scriptures.

Therefore, a more accurate translation of the word "Ummy" would be "Gentile" since a gentile is a term used on any who have not received the scriptures, which is exactly what the Arabs were, and NOT "Illiterate" as people would have us believe.


i hope thats clears it

ws

[vangof]

let me put logic to this post thanks to all shia brothers and sister for the kind efforts to bring the hadith and quran in to it


i am going to look at it form a logic point


so here what i have to say


1- The Quran was transmitted to us through the prophet Mohammed’s own lips over a period of 23 years. Is it conceivable that the man who was in contact with God’s words and who was careful to have them written down and copied never bothered to learn to read what he was having written?

2- The prophet Mohammed was reputed to be a skilful tradesman, having done some successful enterprises for his first wife “Khadija”. Any student of history knows that numbers as we know them weren’t developed until decades after the prophet’s death. All trade was done with letters having numeric values (A=1, B=2, G=3, D=4, H=5, etc..). How could the prophet be a successful trader without knowing the letters?


Although the above questions may seem obvious to any rationale human being, they do not appear so to those who have engulfed themselves in fabricated tales where truth and deception mix. The case that Islamic scholars use to prove that the prophet Mohammed was illiterate is the use of the word “Ummy” in the Quran when referring to the prophet. The scholars have said that “Ummy” means “Illiterate” and that God is the one who supports this story


Let us look at ALL the verses in the Quran which use the word “Ummy”:

“…and tell those who have received the scriptures and the Ummien have you submitted?…” (3/20)

“And from the people of the scriptures are those whom if you entrust him with an ounce he will return it to you, and those whom if you entrust him with a Dinar he will not return it to you unless you are persistent, that is because they said: We have no obligation to the Ummien, and they say upon God falsehood while they are fully aware“(3/75)
He is the One Who sent to the Ummien a messenger from amongst them…” (62/2)

and so on and forth

For the sake of clarity I have kept the word “Ummy” in its original form without translating it so the reader may draw his/her own conclusions.

The Arabs of Mecca were very well known for their strength in poetry and their deep grasp of the Arabic language. These people were neither Jews nor Christians, but they believed that they followed the religion of Abraham.

Since the Arab’s were never recipients of any heavenly scripture then they could be correctly described as “Gentiles”, and since the prophet Mohammed was raised from amongst the Arabs then he too was a “Gentile” before receiving the scriptures.

Therefore, a more accurate translation of the word "Ummy" would be "Gentile" since a gentile is a term used on any who have not received the scriptures, which is exactly what the Arabs were, and NOT "Illiterate" as people would have us believe.


i hope thats clears it

ws

[Hasnain]

First suarh says "Read by the name of Allah" how did the prophet read if he didn't know how to?

[salmany]

Sallam

Sis Hajar and Bro Zahra brought up a good point. Actually this also a perfect answer to the Jews and Christians who say that The Prophet borrowed from the bibles. The Prophet not being able to read or write disproves this and shows the Quran was actually a miracle from Allah.

MAybe if you people were alittle open minded you would realize it.

But Sunnis are somewhat divided when it comes to the prophet being illiterate and unschooled.

Sallam

[Peer]

salmany, on Nov 19 2003, 03:57 AM, said:

Sallam

Sis Hajar and Bro Zahra brought up a good point. Actually this also a perfect answer to the Jews and Christians who say that The Prophet borrowed from the bibles. The Prophet not being able to read or write disproves this and shows the Quran was actually a miracle from Allah.

MAybe if you people were alittle open minded you would realize it.

But Sunnis are somewhat divided when it comes to the prophet being illiterate and unschooled.

Sallam

Putting logic over proof?