71 replies to this topic

[Orion]

[quote][color=#000000:post_uid0]I have one question to zainbia though. You have said that the "Taburakaat" of Prophet Mohammad can be able to heel us of benefited us. "Taburukaat" and correct me if I'm wrong, are the "things" used by prophet, right???. And again, its a conceptual thing and I dont know how far you will agree with me but its like we acting as "musrik" by doing so.

We are having a rebuttle on asking help of Allah thru Prophet let alone seeking help from material objects used by Prophet Mohammed?????It's seem to me more of mythical concept as practise in hinduism.
I dont know you guy now enlighten me over the issue.

[haideriam]

[quote][color=#000000:post_uid0]The way I preceive, Angels were enough for Him to abide by His rule and obedience. We than should have a entire different role of our existence.


What is the difference b/w a prophet and an ordinary man. Both are His creation, but prophet is just acting as His massenger.

[zainabia]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]bismillah



Brother Siddiqui,

Will you believe me, if I tell you that I can understand the confusions that you have in your mind at Tabarukkat at moment?

(I don't know if you are a salafi brother or not, but in general let me address our salafi brothers) The problem is that our Salafi brothers [b:post_uid0]have a completely different DOMAIN of knowledge[/b:post_uid0]

All the Salafi Ulama know this Barakah in the Tabarukkat, and they accept it too (at many places in the quran in urdu, published by Saudi government, the Saudi Alim had to accept it while interpretating several verses. I will cite some of them later on insha-Allah).

But unfortunately, they hesitate/dislike to reveal it to the Normal People. Normally, they give an impression that to believe such a thing is Shirk.

=============================

Brother Siddiqui,

I belong to a shia family. But I also didn't know these verses and Ahadith (which I will quote in next post). First of all I came across with book of "Abdullah Ibne Wahab". After reading that book, and having company with Salafi brothers and sisters in first year of my university, I myself turned against Shafaat and Wasila and Tabarukkat.

But then I came across to these verses and Ahadith too. And in the beginning, I was not ready to give up my salafi ideas and thinkings.

And all that was due to my previous Domain of knowledge, which made me so much againt Shaffat and Tawassul that I was not ready to accept such things.

But then I made Allah and his Rasool  pbuh my witness and asked Allah to help me to choose the right path.

===============================

In last, brother I request you to please do a research on this topic and take your decission only after having in depth knowledge of these things.

Your knowledge will help you in choosing the right path.

May Allah help us all and show us the right path. Amin.

[Fsiddiqui]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Brother Orion, thankyou for the response. Yes its very logical of using medicine for healing purposes and I'm in no denial.
Allah has made us "ashraful muklookaat" meaning we are the only creature given the power of logical thinking using our brain. Thats why Iblees was having a hard time to accept the fact that he have to bow us. Since Allah Subhnaho Tallah has given us this gray matter to use and his expectation is also that we will gonna use the best judgement to approach Him.
Now logically, you telling me that a dying man with cancer or a tumor, if been wrap with a "abbah" of Rasool will eliminate his problem????I know in any religion faith is an essentail thing but if we cross the boundries of logical sense and expect miracles because we using some of our prophet belonging, to heal, is beyond my logical ground. If this would have been the case than we wouldn't have to be so tecnologically advance to coop up with our everyday problem.
You guys must be familiar with Benny Him....he do this healing drama everyday on TV. A person, due to back injury havent walk for 30 years, just by his  touch, he can walk again and so on. When investigated, its was all hoax. But people still beleive on him as diviner. Same kind of cult we have in Hinduism too.
But again, as I said I might be completely wrong.

[zainabia]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]bismillah



[b:post_uid0]
======================
Tranquility of Hearts was put into
relics (tabarukkat) of Aale Musa
and Aale Haroon by Allah
======================
[/b:post_uid0]
[b:post_uid0]2:247.  And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.

2:248.  And the prophet said to them:[u:post_uid0]Surely the sign of His kingdom is, that there shall come to you the chest in which there is tranquillity from your Lord and residue of the relics of what the children of Musa and the children of Haroun have left, [/u:post_uid0]the angels bearing it; most surely there is a sign in this for those who believe.  


Shakir's Quran Translation[/b:post_uid0]

The prophet of Bani Israel (Samuel) told bani israel that Talut has been appointed as king over them by Allah.

And the sign of his kindom was this that angels will bring back an arch, which contains some relics (tabraukkat) of aale Musa and aale Haroon (that arch was captured by enemies in the previous wars).

Great Salafi Mufassir Ibne Kathir says that those relics were shoes and Ammama and handshoes of these 2 prophets.

Allah put transquility and comforts of hearts in that arch And  commanded Bani Isreal to put that arch in front of them during the wars.

Through the barakah of that arch, bani Israel defeated the Jaloot (the Zalim king who made bani israel his slave).

====================================



[b:post_uid0]
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Idol of Samiri started speaking through
the barakah of mud, from which Jibrael
passed away
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

20:96.  He said: I saw (Jibreel) what they did not see, so I took a handful (of the dust) from the footsteps of the messenger (jibrael), then I threw it in the casting; thus did my soul commend to me

Shakir's Quran Translation[/b:post_uid0]

When Musa a.s. went to Kohe-Toor, he left Haroon a.s. as his Khalifa.

Samiri made an idol of calf and put the dust of footsteps of Jibrael into it. While Jibrael-e-Amin a.s. is Ruhul Amin, hence due to the Barakah of that mud, that calf started talking.

(please for more information, see the tafseer of above verse in Saudi printed quran in Urdu)

==============================

[b:post_uid0]
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Musa a.s. was commanded by Allah to put
off his shoes in order to show respect to the
sacred valley of Tuwa
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

20:11.  So when he came to it, a voice was uttered: O Musa:  P Y
20:12.  Surely I am your Lord, therefore put off your shoes; surely you are in the sacred valley, Tuwa,

Shakir's Quran Translation[/b:post_uid0]

===============================
[b:post_uid0]
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Barakah in the Standing Place of Ibrahim
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


3:97.  In it are clear signs, the standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it shall be secure, and pilgrimage to the House is incumbent upon men for the sake of Allah

Shakir's Quran Translation[/b:post_uid0]

========================

(Brother Orion, at this point I would request you to please write down some lines on the quranic concept of "Respecting the signs of Allah.

This is also a  quranic concept which Salafi Ulama often hide from others.

And I will insha-Allah, come with 100 plus Ahadith (which are authentic according to Salafies too), as soon as I get the time.


I am sure, once Brother Siddiqui has read all this stuff, it will help him to get the right decission. Insha-Allah.

==================================

Was Salam.

[Orion]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Brother Fsiddiqui,

I will InshaAllah answer your questions. But first I would like you to comment on the verses 12:93-96. What do you think about this story and the role of Prophet Yusuf's Shirt.

Thanks.

[Fsiddiqui]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]May Allah guide us......
Hazrat Yusuf was an appointee from God Himself, and if he can ask for a miracle directly from God to put his shirt on his father face to regain his blindness than, again, he was a prophet. Or it could be to let em know that he is okay. We cannot. But again we dont know wether this aya used as metaphorically to let his father know that he is okay or really a miracle has happened to his blind father. We dont know wether his father was even blind and the laymen term is used in quran to explain the love and Allah's power. God Knows better.
But the thing to remember is, if if this is not Symbolically and for real than they were prophet(s) not us living in 20th century.
Plus Orion did you notice when the king inquired about Yousf and when that inquiry came to his (yousuf) knowledge, his response to king's messenger in aya 12:52-54. He simply did not exculpate himself from sins.
Even his father like to address his problem directly to Allah instead asking second sources as revealed in aya 12:86.

[Nadeem P]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Orion

Quote

Do you honestly think that you can go back a few ayats and always figure out the meanings of an Ayat?

Example is follow verse:

Of a surety, [b:post_uid0]they[/b:post_uid0] are the ones who make mischief, but [b:post_uid0]they[/b:post_uid0] realise (it) not.  (ayat No.12)

    now one cannot just quote this verse arbitrarily without knowing "who are they",  i.e Nouns or Pronouns who whom this verse is related to: for that your need to go in the context :

Here are those people for whom "they" is being used

     I think it will make clear.

Quote

There are some Qur'anic sciences which are beyond our comprehension.

   I wished that he should have used the word "verses" instead of "sciences". And Almighty has clearly told mankind that those verses are allegorical. Do not run after their meaning.
Here is very clear warning given about them

   Unfortunately some "people" wish to have monopoly over Quran. They make people afraid of Quran. They do not wish that general people should understand Quran because their 'monopoly and interests' are at stake. Quran has been made very easy by God Himself. I do not know why people make it so complicated and present it as it is out of reach. Brother! it is for all [b:post_uid0]mankind[/b:post_uid0].  No monopoly at all. More people will read Quran without "rote concept", more their concepts will be crystal clear, without this book people will always be astray.

[145_turbo_16V]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Bro Nadeem,

Quote

Brother! it is for all mankind.  No monopoly at all. More people will read Quran without "rote concept", more their concepts will be crystal clear, without this book people will always be astray.

Are you saying that the Quran can be translated by any person? I'm just curious as to your ideas on the way to interpret the obvious and hidden meanings of the Quran.

There is a verse from the Quran which states that certain parts of the Quran can only be touched by the purified ones. Some people say it implies wudhu. Others say it means that the purified ones mean people who are cleansed by Allah (SWT).

I wonder what is the function of all the mufassirin then if one can take the Quran and read it and translate it on its own.

AS far as I know there is no such monoploy on the Quran as far as knowledge goes. It is free for all. What is not free is to translate the verses to one's own whims.

The Quran is a book of guidence and misguidence, depending on which path you wish to follow.

[Nadeem P]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Dear Brother,

Quote

1) what is your belief about the hadith and sunnah of Rasoolillah   ?

2)If you believe in the sunnah, then what hadith books do you think are authentic ?

3)You emphasize a lot on tafseers (interpretation) of the Holy Quran, what tafseer do you look up?? Doesn't the interpretator use the authentic hadith and sunnah and history to interpretate the Holy Quran? like you always ask, who are THEY in this verse....????

    These are not new questions. People when confronted with Quranic logic and seem to have no answer start asking these sterotype questions, becuase they do not have any answer from Quran. Although your questions are very outplace but here are my replies:

i)  I believe in Hadith and Sunna pbuh . But I do not accept anything which is contrary to Quran, whatever name the people may be giving to it. My foremost and utmost priority is Quran. If Quran says "estalish prayer" and hadith is explaining that in Fajr there are two Farz, in Zoher there are four farz etc.  Following of Quran is the biggest Sunnah  pbuh .

2)   Books what far? [color=red:post_uid0]UNFORTUNATELY THE VERY FACT THAT PEOPLE SAY THAT THIS HADITH IS ZAHEEF AND THIS IS SABIT, PUT A BIQ QUESTION MARK ON THE CRITERIA AND STANDARD OF JUDGING SOMETHING

[Nadeem P]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Quote

There is a verse from the Quran which states that certain parts of the Quran can only be touched by the purified ones.

  Please quote and give link that says "certain parts of Quran" can only be touched by the purified ones"

    I can understand that Quran a divine book should be touched with purified hands but from where you got "certain parts"

  for God shake.

[Nadeem P]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Quote

What is not free is to translate the verses to one's own whims.

   I 100% agree. A severe punishment is for such people who do it according to their whims.

[Orion]

[quote][color=#000000:post_uid0]Hazrat Yusuf was an appointee from God Himself, and [b:post_uid0]if he can[/b:post_uid0] ask for a miracle directly from God to put his shirt on his father face to regain his blindness [b:post_uid0]than[/b:post_uid0], again, he was a prophet. [b:post_uid0]Or it could be[/b:post_uid0] to let em know that he is okay. We cannot. [b:post_uid0]But again we dont know[/b:post_uid0] wether this aya used as metaphorically to let his father know that he is okay or really a miracle has happened to his blind father. [b:post_uid0]We dont know[/b:post_uid0] wether his father was even blind and the laymen term is used in quran to explain the love and Allah's power. [b:post_uid0]God Knows better. [/b:post_uid0]
But the thing to remember is, if if this is not Symbolically and for real than they were prophet(s) not us living in 20th century.
Plus Orion did you notice when the king inquired about Yousf and when that inquiry came to his (yousuf) knowledge, his response to king's messenger in aya 12:52-54. He simply did not exculpate himself from sins.
Even his father like to address his problem directly to Allah instead asking second sources as revealed in aya 12:86.

[Nadeem P]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Dear Brothers!

     

     If you do not mind, permit me to say:

    This is none of our business to know [b:post_uid0]HOW[/b:post_uid0] the shirt cured the blindness, but it is and it has to be our firm belief that happened. "How" & "why" is not our concern. The real thing is "attachment" to God and belief that he is able to do all things. He orders "be" and "it is". We cannot question [b:post_uid0]How[/b:post_uid0] Jesus can be borne, but we do 'believe' that He was born by God. Please do remember that as in Quran, Children of Israel used to ask and enquire so many things with "How" and "why", and their fate is before our eyes. Even God showed them how He can raise the dead.  So better we all should come out of this "How" &"Why" and surrender to the Lord of of Worlds, there is No God except Him, He is the Omnipotent, He is the Eternal and Living for ever (HayulQayyum), no one else. He can do all the things and we believe in His Powers.  That solves all things.

Waslaam
===================================
My God: You are the One whose help I seek.

[Fsiddiqui]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]my point exactly.....we dont know at this point even this scenario was taken place. As I'm not denying the fact that whether this happen or not but my emphasis is on whether the scription of quran is metaphorically or  for real. But still people taken the verse literally as the whole saga happened in front of us. We should be trying for the underlying idea instead of taken word by word literally.
Again I thankyou guys that you actually help me to clarify the situation.

[Fsiddiqui]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]guys its TGIF..will see you on Monday......

[Orion]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Quote

my point exactly.....we dont know at this point even this scenario was taken place. As I'm not denying the fact that whether this happen or not but my emphasis is on whether the scription of quran is metaphorically or  for real. But still people taken the verse literally as the whole saga happened in front of us. We should be trying for the underlying idea instead of taken word by word literally.
Again I thankyou guys that you actually help me to clarify the situation.

Salam o Alekum,

On one extreme we have Brother [b:post_uid0]Nadeem P[/b:post_uid0], who is taking the position that Quran is enough and verses could be understood based on their literal translation without any background knowledge of religious sciences like hadith, history etc.............on the other extreme we have Brother [b:post_uid0]Fsiddiqui[/b:post_uid0] who wants to deny the literal translations and wants to guess on the underlying idea or the Metaphorical meaning behind these verses, according to his understanding.

The reality could be midway b/w the two exrtreme positions. It is possible that Quran has both Literal and Metaphorical meaning. It all depends on the knowledge of the reader. Since none of us are scholars we should rely on those who are expert in this field. We should read and try to ponder over Quranic verses (according to our inderstanding) but also we should read what scholars say about these verses. Getting help tafseer books, history books, hadith books, sayings of scholars is an assential part of understanding quran.

Like man the Qur'an also has many potentialities. It is a large table on which many dishes of various tastes have been placed by Allah. From it everybody can have food of his choice. It is for all. Everybody can be benefited by it according to his taste and choice but as the level goes up, the way of utilization improves. Its highest beneficiary is he who is its first addressee and to whom it was revealed, our Prophet (SAWW). Then are the Ahly Bait after them are Awliyah and the most learned Ulema e Karam and the most pious people..........where do we stand? maybe down below somewhere at the end of the line.


Khuda-Hafiz.



Edited By Orion on 1032559017

[haideriam]

[quote][color=#000000:post_uid0]Dear Brothers!

     

     If you do not mind, permit me to say:

    This is none of our business to know [b:post_uid0]HOW[/b:post_uid0] the shirt cured the blindness, but it is and it has to be our firm belief that happened. "How" & "why" is not our concern. The real thing is "attachment" to God and belief that he is able to do all things. He orders "be" and "it is". We cannot question [b:post_uid0]How[/b:post_uid0] Jesus can be borne, but we do 'believe' that He was born by God. Please do remember that as in Quran, Children of Israel used to ask and enquire so many things with "How" and "why", and their fate is before our eyes. Even God showed them how He can raise the dead.  So better we all should come out of this "How" &"Why" and surrender to the Lord of of Worlds, there is No God except Him, He is the Omnipotent, He is the Eternal and Living for ever (HayulQayyum), no one else. He can do all the things and we believe in His Powers.  That solves all things.

Waslaam
===================================
My God: You are the One whose help I seek.

[145_turbo_16V]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]

Quote

Quote

There is a verse from the Quran which states that certain parts of the Quran can only be touched by the purified ones.

  Please quote and give link that says "certain parts of Quran" can only be touched by the purified ones"

    I can understand that Quran a divine book should be touched with purified hands but from where you got "certain parts"

  for God shake.

I wasn't accurate about "certain parts". What I really meant by "certain parts" is the "hidden meanings" of verses which has more than the literal meanings.

I think this is the whole point of contention.

I gather that you do not quite believe in the concept of hidden meanings in the Quran and that those only being able to be expounded by people having an extremely in depth knowledge of the Holy Book.

Anyway here are the relevant verses.

[Shakir 56:78] In a book that is protected
[Pickthal 56:78] In a Book kept hidden
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 56:78] (see commentary for verse 77)

[Shakir 56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.
[Pickthal 56:79] Which none toucheth save the purified,
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 56:79] (see commentary for verse 77)


This is the commentary by Agha Mehdi Pooya. Again, we rely on the fact that the translation is done by a person who has profound knowledge in the Quran.

I will post only part of the commentary, I don't want to make this post a long and boring one.

(v) If there is a tradition which prohibits impure persons to touch the revealed version of the Quran, it should be taken as an imperative based on the indicative preposition as has been pointed out in the commentary of Saffat: 102-Ibrahim told Ismail his dream in an indicative form but Ismail treated the indicative as imperative.

(vi) The phrase al mutahharun (the purified) does not refer to those who purify themselves by a material purifying agent or by embracing Islam. In Abasa: 13 to 16 and Bayyinah: 2 and 3 this phrase has been used for purifying the book by Allah Himself. In Baqarah: 25 it is used to describe the wives purified by Allah.

(vii) The physical touch is partial because the surface of one thing touches the surface of another thing. In the case of intellectual touch the knower grasps the known in such a way that the known, the knowing and the knower become identifiable with each other. It is a total touch.

(viii) As the term touch requires, the toucher and the touched should be of the same class, otherwise the touch or grasp would be not possible.

(ix) Taking into consideration all these arguments, many commentators have said that the word mutahharun refers to the angels, accepting the principle that touching of the Quran in its original state of "well guarded tablet" is possible only if the toucher has been purified. Now if the application of the term is confined to the angels, the superior status given to man by Allah-He has appointed him as His vicegerent and commanded the angels to prostrate before him (see commentary of Baqarah: 30 to 39)-will be brought low which amounts to rebellion against Allah; particularly when Allah has thoroughly purified a group of human beings, the Ahl ul Bayt of the Holy Prophet, by His will and command in verse 33 of Ahzab. These verses are inseparably linked with Ahzab: 33. On the basis of all these verses the Holy Prophet joined the Quran and his Ahl ul Bayt together (see hadith al thaqalayn on page 6) so that guidance, mercy and knowledge be available to mankind in all ages.



Edited By 145_turbo_16V on 1032564855

[zainabia]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]bismillah


As I notice that brothers are talking about the shirt of Hadhrat Yousuf a.s. and Barkah of healing  in it.

Let me also tell you about the shirt of Rasool Allah pbuh and barakah in that shirt.

Hope that it will help to clearify the case.

==================================
[b:post_uid0]

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Tabarruk with the Prophet's jubba (robe or cloak).
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%



- Imam Muslim relates that `Abd Allah, the freed slave of Asma' the daughter of Abu Bakr, the maternal uncle of the son of `Ata', said: "Asma' sent me to Abdullah ibn `Umar saying:

"The news has reached me that you prohibit the use of three things: the striped robe, saddle cloth made of red silk, and fasting the whole month of Rajab."

Abdullah said to me:

"So far as what you say about fasting in the month of Rajab, how about one who observes continuous fasting? And so far as what you say about the striped garment, I heard `Umar ibn al-Khattab say that he had heard from Allah's Messenger: "He who wears a silk garment, has no share for him (in the Hereafter)." And I am afraid that stripes were part of it. And so far as the red saddle cloth is concerned, here is `Abd Allah's saddle cloth [= his] and it is red."

I went back to Asma' and informed her, so she said:

"Here is the cloak (jubba) of Allah's Messenger," and she brought out to me that cloak made of Persian cloth with a hem of (silk) brocade, and its sleeves bordered with (silk) brocade, and said:

[u:post_uid0][i:post_uid0][color=red:post_uid0]"This was Allah's Messenger's cloak with `A'isha until she died, then I got possession of it. The Apostle of Allah  used to wear it, and we washed it for the sick so that they could seek cure thereby.[/u:post_uid0][/i:post_uid0]



Edited By zainabia on 1032593340

[zainabia]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]  

bismillah

Please read also the following some of the ahadith, which will help the people to understand if the incident of shirt of Yousuf in quran is literal one or the figurative one:

[b:post_uid0]
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Tabarruk with the Prophet's saliva and ablution water
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


These hadiths are extremely numerous.



- In Bukhari and Muslim:

The Companions would compete for whoever would get the remnant of the Prophet's ablution water in order to put it on their faces. Nawawi in Sharh Sahih Muslim said: "In these narrations is evidence for seeking blessings with the relics of the saints" (fihi al-tabarruk bi athar al-salihin).



- The Prophet used to heal the sick with his saliva mixed with some earth with the words: "Bismillah, the soil of our earth with the saliva of one / some of us shall heal our sick with our Lord's permission."
(Bukhari and Muslim).



Regarding this hadith Ibn Hajar says in Fath al-bari (1989 ed. 10:255-256):


- The Prophet had everyone in Madina bring their newborn, whom he would read upon and into whose mouth he would do nafth and tifl (breath mixed with saliva). He would instruct their mother not to suckle them that day until nightfall. He did the same later in Mecca.

(Ref:- Bukhari, Abu Dawud, Ahmad, Bayhaqi (Dala'il), etc.)


[i:post_uid0][u:post_uid0][color=red:post_uid0]- The names of over 100 of the Ansar and Muhajirin who received this particular blessing have been transmitted with isnads, and are found in the main books of biographies.

[/b:post_uid0][/i:post_uid0][/u:post_uid0]

[zainabia]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]bismillah

Mr. Nadeem,

Thank you Sir for making your concepts clear about quran and hadith.

But for the sake of more clearity, may I ask you if you have any link with Dr. Parwaiz Ahmad? Have you ever read his books?

==========================

I have also read some parts of quran that you refer in your posts.

The translator has also given some notes for the sake of explaination. But all his explainations are according to his own personal veiws (i.e. he didn't use any hadith but merely used his logic)

And at some points, his logic goes directly against the established sunnah.

e.g. at one place he wrote that all the people, either they are muslims or kafirs, can go into jannah if their deeds are good. And this veiw is against the established sunnah which says that mushriks will get the reward of their good deeds, but will never enter jannah.

Allah will forgive any sin except shirk.

===============================

Mr. Nadeem, do you personally know this translator?