60 replies to this topic

[Changed]

allahumma salle ala muhammadiv wa ala ale muhummadiv wa barik wasallam

please see the site:
Ignorancy and Quran A perfect Sunni site and moreover its an anti Shia*

Edited by Mazher's, 11 August 2005 - 06:53 AM.

[ResurgencE]

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in service of islam and rasulallah

You have done a great dis-service to Islam and Rasullalah, if you but knew.

The first sentence on the web site itself shows the ignorance of the author in question:

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One of the major "Battle Fields" between Muslims & Shi'ites is the later's belief regarding

The Jaffery madhab is the official 5th school of thought in Islam. What does he think he's doing, by segregating "Muslims" and "Shi'ites" into separate categories, thus going against an express Sunni fatwa?

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To date, we are not aware of any Shi'a scholar who denies this theory in a whole and/or in part.

Reeeee-heeeee-heeeeee-heeeeee-ally?

http://www.al-islam.org/protection/
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/default....conceptions.htm

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Their authentic books contain over 2000 narration from their "INFALLIBLE" Imams verifying

Why is the term 'infallible' in quotes, here? You have trouble accepting infallibility? Well, i have trouble accepting a caliph who is 'fallible'. I adhere to the sunnah of the Prophet, and what is in the Qur'an. What the Shaykain innovated after him, i care not to address.

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It is hard to imagine a single Shi'ite who does not believe that the Qur'an has been distorted by the Companions of the Messenger of Allah [saw], unless such a person is a newly made Shi'ite.

Well, that just goes to show that the author is devoid of any imagination whatsoever. Here i stand, claiming that the Qur'an is untouched by man, and will remain so till the day of judgement. Or is what i claim just a figment of your 'imagination', to the extent that no matter what i say, you will continue to hold me a kafir?

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On the other hand, when their belief became exposed to the Muslims, and the Shi'a were rejected as the body rejects waste, some of their Rabbis met to discuss and find away out of this delimma, agreed to conceal their true beliefs, and to clad their religion the garment of Taqiyyah to deceive the Muslims.

The first man to practice Taqqiyah was the noblest man to ever walk the face of the Earth, Muhammad Mustafa (saw). Are you calling my Prophet, and yours, a deceiver?

And how is it that you use the terminology 'Rabbis', for our clerics? Do you not feel a tinge of shame, then, when your esteemed scholars lose debates to rabbis?

If it is providing service to Islam you seek, then unite the ummah. Dont create fitnah.

[Socrates]

mazhers, on Jun 13 2003, 01:45 PM, said:

dear resurgence
my intention is not to divert islam

i know brother resugence that you love islam so do i
but the sole diffrences between me and you are

i believe every sect is evil , and it only harms islam

every ulema is fallible so unknowingly or knowingly he is diviating islam according to his owm philosophy

i am not a sunni in literal form (but i am a sunni inpractical form )

i am not a shia in literal form (but i am shia in practical form )

i am perfectly non rafidi
i deny many stance of wahhabism
i dont believe in ismailism
i hate ahmadism
i am not radvi
i am sectless

LOVE ISLAM NOT TO DIVIDE IT BUT TO UNIFY IT

madhab means the "path"

if u haven't found it, the you are well and truly lost!

[ResurgencE]

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my intention is not to divert islam

Then kindly explain the underlying reason behind posting that link. Do you not perceive us to be Rafidhis?

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i believe every sect is evil , and it only harms islam

I believe that other sects are an innovation, and i believe the Prophet prophesized this. But i also believe that out of the 70 or so sects of Islam, one is the true path. Adherents of other sects are victims of history. Those who reject the truth once it comes to them are doing injustice to themselves. But i will surely not condemn other sects to be entirely evil, for they are not blaspheming...Its their faith.

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every ulema is fallible so unknowingly or knowingly he is diviating islam according to his owm philosophy

The ulema expatiate on the philosophy behind the Qur'an and the sunnah of the Prophet and Imams. They do not innovate. You have belittled the entire human race, by removing Aql entirely from the picture, for it is intellect that helps us to ascertain the right path.

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i am not a sunni in literal form (but i am a sunni inpractical form )

i am not a shia in literal form (but i am shia in practical form )

Nice poetry. Now explain what it is you mean.

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i am perfectly non rafidi
i deny many stance of wahhabism
i dont believe in ismailism
i hate ahmadism
i am not radvi
i am sectless

I fail to understand how you can condemn all these sects, when you yourself admit you are fallible. If it is someone else's opinion you follow, it means that you are therefore doing taqleed in some form or the other, binding yourself to the opinion of another person, be it a mujtahid or otherwise. And if you are merely practicing ijtihad, well then you have indulged in the very same innovation you so vociferously condemn. So which is it?

If you claim that the Qur'an is sufficient for you, and you require nothing else, then you've belittled the Prophet, and history is insignificant to you. Furthermore, you have gone against a clear injunction in the Qur'an to emulate your Prophet for he is your best example. The rak'ahs of the prayer are not mentioned in the Qur'an, so how is it that you pray? In fact, how do you interpret the Qur'an, if not for tafsir and history?

If it is indeed the Qur'an alone that you follow, you're merely reiterating the arguments of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab on, what we today know as, 'Black Thursday'.

I would like to learn more of the stance you take, to aid me in understanding just what makes you tick.

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madhab means the "path"

Thought it meant 'School of thought'? Doesnt 'Sirrah' mean path?

[Socrates]

madhab literally means path

as that is what the verb dh-ha-ba means - to go (I think)

(arabic speakers help me here)

[ResurgencE]

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can you please explain me that rasulallah's  only message is to follow a particular sect.

hope your answer is no

so this the only thing that which i am following

Are you? According to Hadith-e-thaqalayn, the Rasoul left behind two weighty things before his demise, to which if we attach ourselves firmly, we will never go astray. One is the Qur'an. The other is his Itra (Kindred). Additionally, in the event that took place in Ghadir-e-Khum, the Prophet announced that Ali Ibn Abi Talib was the master of all the believers, thus confirming Imam Ali's superiority and authority over the other companions, whereat every single one of them present were required to give allegiance to Ali (a.s.)

Have you followed the Prophet in this respect? If YOU'RE answer to this is in the affirmative, then kindly explain to me why you paste a after Abu Bakr's name? Or are you entirely incognizant of events that took place in history?

[evian water]

Assalamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Praise be to Allah, and may His warmest peace and blessings be upon His final messenger, and his family, and whoever follows them in their guidance until the day of judgement. To proceed:

This is my first post on this discussion forum, in which I ask Allah to bless its righteous members with guidance and to keep them firm on it.

And I call upon Allah with the following supplication: Oh Lord of Jibreel, Mika`eel, Israafeel, Initiator of the heavens and the earth, Knower of the apparent and unseen, guide us to that which You are pleased with of the truth, verily You guide whom you will to the correct path.

In reality, there were numerous points I wished to raise in this thread alone, but, fearing the scattering of topics, I will refrain, and stick to one question/point at a time.

Point 1

After clicking on the links provided by mazhers and resurgencE, I have a question to the latter:

You state that Shi'i scholars have rebutted/refuted the arguments placed by the Sunni's who state that the Qur'an according to the former is altered/fabricated/edited/distorted, my question is, quite simply, do you consider the one who believes that the Qur'an is distorted disbelievers in the religion of Muhammed pbuh ?

That's all.

Edited by evian water, 05 July 2003 - 10:08 PM.

[Abdulhujjah]

YouthOfAli, on Jun 14 2003, 12:50 AM, said:

madhab means the "path"

if u haven't found it, the you are well and truly lost!

Right on brother, hit the nail on the head.

[evian water]

I await a knowledge-based response.

[Socrates]

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do you consider the one who believes that the Qur'an is distorted disbelievers in the religion of Muhammed  ?

As fasr as I am aware, No Shia scholar accepts distortion of Qur'an (when there are ahadeeth in saheeh Bukhari on tahreef of Quran).

[evian water]

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As fasr as I am aware, No Shia scholar accepts distortion of Qur'an (when there are ahadeeth in saheeh Bukhari on tahreef of Quran).

Thing is, that's a clear attempt to evade the question.

1) Click on the links provided by mazhers, and you'll see, that indeed some leading Shi'a scholars affirmed distortion, and wrote books on it, so my question, again, is:

You state that Shi'i scholars have rebutted/refuted the arguments placed by the Sunni's who state that the Qur'an according to the former is altered/fabricated/edited/distorted, my question is, quite simply, do you consider the one who believes that the Qur'an is distorted disbelievers in the religion of Muhammed pbuh ?

That's all.

[B-N]

salam...

The bottom line is that the hadiths or personal views cannot contradict quran...
With regards to the traditions of some shia books that Nasibis shamelessly quotes, we should point out that these traditions have been deemed by the Ulema to be weak narrations. In addition to this Allah (swt) takes the responsibility of protection of the Qur’an Himself by declaring:

' Certainly We revealed the Reminder and certainly We shall preserve it." (The Holy Quran'

When Allah (swt) provides a guarantee that it is protected, any hadith of tahreef automatically has to be rejected. We do not deny that these traditions exist, but the Nasibis should know that there is a difference between tahreef traditions and basing one ;s aqeedah on those traditions. The ultimate standard to determine the authenticity of any hadith is the Quran, if it conflicts with Allah (swt) ;s Book it must be disregarded.

There are many saying of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt that clearly vouch for the authenticity of the Quran, being the same unaltered text revealed to Prophet Muhammad (S) by Allah (swt). There are numerous traditions from the Imams that prove this point,so why one shall accept the points of tahreef in quran from any common scholars instead of the statementds of Imams and the Quran?

Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali
We did not make humans rulers, but we made the Qur’an the ruler over humans. This Quran is free from change but does not speak on its own accoard, an interpreter is needed for this task.Nahjul Balagha part 6 page 7, Publishers Rehmania Egypt

Hadhrath Imam Jafar Sadiq
Ali bin Salam narrates from his father who asked Imam Jafer Sadiq ,O descendant of Prophet (S). What are your views on the Quran? Imam Jafer replied and ;the Quran is Allah ;s book; it contains commands of Allah; sent by Allah. It is not subject to alteration, neither can anyone claim that it has been changed, nor has anyone ever made such a claim.
Amali-al-Shaykh Saduq, Page 545, Published Iran


Hadhrath Imam Ali Naqi The whole Ummah agrees on the authenticity of the Quran. No sect in the Ummah denies this fact, and this claim is true.
Ehtijaj-e-Tabrisi, Page 234, Published Iran)


Comments of Shia scholars refuting these lies

Shaykh Saduq (R.A)

The greatest Shia scholar of Hadith, Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn al-Husain Ibn Babwayh, known as "Shaykh Saduq" (309/919 - 381/991), wrote:

"Our belief is that the Quran which Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn). And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of surahs as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen ...And he who asserts that we say that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."
1. Etikadat Shaykh Saduq 93, Published Iran)
2. Awail-el-Mukalat, Page 55-56, Published Najaf
3. Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, p77



Allamah Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar

"We believe that the Holy Quran is revealed by Allah through the Holy Prophet of Islam dealing with every thing which is necessary for the guidance of mankind. It is an everlasting miracle of the Holy Prophet the like of which cannot be produced by human mind. It excels in its eloquence, clarity, truth and knowledge. This Divine Book has not been tampered with by any one. This Holy Book which we recite today is the same Holy Quran which was revealed to the Holy Prophet. Any one who claims it to be otherwise is an evil-doer, a mere sophist, or else he is sadly mistaken. All of those who have this line of thinking have gone astray as Allah in Quran said:

"Falsehood can not reach the Quran from any direction (41:42)"
The Beliefs of Shi'ite School, by Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar, English version, p50-51



Allamah Muhammad Hussein Tabatabai

This renowned scholar of the Quran writes in his very famous exegesis, Tafseer-ul-Meezan, 12th edition, page 109, Published Iran:

The Quran, which Almighty Allah descended on Prophet Muhammad (S), is protected from any change.


Scholars of Ahlul Sunnah that have vouched for the Shia viewpoint

Despite the belated efforts of these Nasibis in spreading lies, there are true humble Sunni Ulema that have looked beyond these lies and have confirmed that the Shia believe that the Quran is the uncorrupted Word of Allah (swt).

Imam of Ahlul Sunnah Allamah Shaykh Ghazzali of Egypt

Whilst addressing the allegation that the Shia ascribe tahreef to the Quran. He said:

In one gathering I heard a man say that Shi’as have a different Quran, which is unlike the Quran we have. I asked him, and Where is that Quran? Islam is being practiced on three continents. Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (S) until today, a passing of fourteen hundred years, the Ummah has known of the existence of only the one Quran, we possess knowledge of where the chapters begin and end, end as well as the number of verses that they contain. Where is this other Quran? During this long passage of time how is it that any man or jinn have not located this and other Quran? These lies cause dissention between brothers and cause dissention about the Book. There is only one Quran, if it is published in Cairo, it is considered holy in Najaf and Tehran as well, they will hold it in their hands and keep it in their homes. They have nothing but respect for the Creator that sent it, and the person through whom it was revealed. Why then are such rumors and lies spread about people and this message?
Wafa an Al aqida wa Al Shariah, Page 265-266, Publishers Al kutub Al hadisia, Egypt, 1985



Principal of the Shariah Department of Al Azhar University, Allamah Shaykh Muhammed-al-Madani


To state that the Shia Imamia believe that the Quran on account of traditions that can be located in their texts, is just the same as reaching the conclusion on the basis of such references in our books and but both Shia and Sunni scholars have refuted these claims. None amongst the Imamia Shia and Zaidia believe in this lie, in the same way that none of the adherents of Ahlul Sunnah do. Whoever accuses the Shia of ascribing to tahreef of the Quran, should read books such as Allamah Suyutis Tafseer Itqan; and objectively look at the traditions that point to tahreef of the Quran. Although we do not accept these sorts of traditions, one Egyptian scholar in 1948 wrote a book titled Al Furqan, in which he copied many of these traditions from the works of Ahlul Sunnah. Should we on this basis conclude that the Ahlul Sunnah do not believe that the Quran is complete? Or should we on account of these traditions which were copied by someone or written in such and such book by such and such a person, adopt the viewpoint that the Ahlul Sunnah believe that the Quran is incomplete? The same conclusion could likewise be reached about the Shia, as like us they also have similar traditions in their books.
Risalahthul-Islam, 11th Edition, Pages 382-383, 4th Part


Imam of Ahlul Sunnah Shah Abdul Aziz Muhadith Dehalvi


Shah Abdul Aziz Muhadith Dehlavi an anti shia scholar , while acknowledging that the Shia do not believe that the Quran had been altered states:

It is proven from all the traditions of the Imamia that the Ahl’ul bayt used to recite this same Quran and based their decisions in accordance with it. The commentary of Quran by Imam Hasan Askari is the commentary of this (same) Quran. All his children, relatives and servants studied ‘this’ Quran, and he used to order them to recite this Quran when praying. It is due to this fact that Shaykh Ibn-e-Bawia in his book Al Aqidath, denied that Quran had been altered.
Tuhfa Ithna Asharia, Page 281, Published Istanbul

Edited by BOY-NICE, 08 July 2003 - 01:18 AM.

[evian water]

Again, that's not the answer to my question.

What do you say of those who do say the Qur'an is distorted?

[B-N]

evian water, on Jul 8 2003, 11:12 AM, said:

Again, that's not the answer to my question.

What do you say of those who do say the Qur'an is distorted?

Read the statement of Shaykh Saduq (R.A) above

[evian water]

How does that answer my question?!

And again:

What do you say of those who do say the Qur'an is distorted?

[zainabia]

evian water, on Jul 8 2003, 06:25 AM, said:

How does that answer my question?!

And again:

What do you say of those who do say the Qur'an is distorted?

Bismillah

Salam Alaikum

Brother, I will answer your question. But one condition i.e. then you will also have to answer one of my question. Agreed?

Was Salam.

[Syed Asad Ali Naqvi]

evian water, on Jul 8 2003, 07:25 AM, said:

How does that answer my question?!

And again:

What do you say of those who do say the Qur'an is distorted?

Salam


I say the quran is protected by Allah (SWT), and protected also from the meddling of the third caliph.


What do you say when people show you ahadiths from bukahri that show uthman changing things?


Somehow i doubt you will answer.....




Wa salam

[Syed Asad Ali Naqvi]

Salam


HHmmm... so there are hadiths in sahih books that are not sahih.... kinda defeats the purpose doesnt it?



Wa salam

[evian water]

Wa 'alaykum assalam,

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Brother, I will answer your question. But one condition i.e. then you will also have to answer one of my question. Agreed?

Agreed.

[evian water]

Awaiting your answer.

Actually, one thing has taken me by surprise, the mere fact that many here are hesitant to call the one who says the Qur'an is distorted a disbeliever, underlines something to me. I am surprised - really surprised.

Edited by evian water, 08 July 2003 - 05:27 PM.

[Syed Asad Ali Naqvi]

Salam


How about a response to my question?



Wa salam

[evian water]

I'm sorry, I posted the question first, when it gets answered, Zianabia has the right to ask a question, and then I may get unto you, in addition, you never posed the question to me in specific.

And I still, await your answers people!

[Syed Asad Ali Naqvi]

Salam


But I answered your question. I didnt realise i was in a queue! The time it took you to write your "non-reply" you could have given me a quick reply.



Wa salam

[evian water]

You didn't answer my question, you said what you believe the Qur'an is to be and who codexed it, which wasn't my question at all.

As for your question now, then, I may answer after my question and after Zainaba asks her question, and I don't like "sandwich" answers, the issue is a detailed issue and not a simple matter.

[Aale Mohammad]

mazhers, on Jun 13 2003, 05:45 PM, said:

i am sectless

"sectless" in itself is one of the sects of Islam. So our sect is shia and your sect is "sectless".